lager ferment temps?

[jimlin]

That's a great idea. Chris White suggests on his White Labs web site, a fermentation temperature of 55 degrees for most of his lagers, and that's the temperature that I find works the best. Let it get started at your 54 ambient temperature, then drop it in the water bath and adjust accordingly. That'll work great. Remember that lager yeast need all the help they can get to grow, so don't forget to oxygenate and add yeast nutrient to the last 10 minutes of your boil. Yeast require calcium, nitrogen, oxygen and zinc for optimal fermentation. Yeast get calcium from your water and nitrogen from the grains, but the only way the yeast get oxygen and zinc is if you put it there. If your water is too soft, add a little gypsum. Also, mentally prepare yourself for and extended lag time. Many people just getting into lagers get a little freaked out by the longer lag times...18-24 hours is normal, and 36 hours isn't terrible either. You don't want anything in excess of 48 hours, but many people report plenty of success with lag times that long.

BeaverBarber, I believe I can go the cheap and easy method of the water bath to keep the temp down given the low temps already in the basement. But you bring up a lot of great points as to what else i need to be thinking about. In the two years I've been homebrewing (1.5 years of which have been AG), I've never added oxygen. I would either simply do the shake the bucket method, or several times, I racked from kettle to bottling bucket, then set the bottling bucket on a counter and run the wort out of the spigot into the carboy (funnel in the carboy). Not really sure if this does much aeration or not. I've gotten away with it, and have had successful results. Just not sure what degree of improvement I'd get with an aeration stone. If this something that lagers have more of a need for, or is it just in general, regardless of the brew?

Have soft well-water. So I tend to add a little gypsum already. Typically in the boil to bring out the hop presence more. Never added yeast nutrient other than what's included in the Wyeast smack-pack. Always do starters when using liquid yeast (I will use S-05 for my American ales often as I've not noticed a big difference between it and 1056 liquid), and rely on Jamil's mrmalty site to calculate how much I need to grow up the starter yeast. Typically chill and decant from my starters as well.

Are lagers just THAT much more work? Seems like there's much more to be thinking about other than just the increased time needed to ferment and lager before bottling.

[ziggy]

Soft well water, a basement that maintains 54 degrees, a spare fridge? You could make a great bohemian pilsner with very little effort. Unless you're going to enter it into a competition, 54 degrees should be fine. Jamil has always said he would rather have a constant temperature that's almost in range than a swinging temperature that's perfectly in range. I would try fermenting on the basement floor and lagering in your spare fridge. If it comes out too estery then you can mess around with temp control.

Also, I have been using pure oxygen for a while now. You get about 4ppm if you slpash into your bucket once, 8ppm max if you shake the crap out of it or use an aeration stone. You need pure oxygen to get above 8ppm.

[jimlin]

I brewed the german pils on 3/10/13.

Temps were near 50 the day before I brewed, back to 25° F on brew day though. Dammit.

All pils malt. 90 minute mash and boil. 148° mash temp. German Tradition @ 60, Tett at 30, Hallertauer @ 20, Saaz @ 10. 1.046 preboil vs the calculated 1.038. 1.056 OG. Didn't boil off as much as I expected, so my boil may have been not vigorous enough. Regardless, I had intended for a 1.051 OG and ended up adding some (boiled and chilled) water to the wort in the fermenter. Not sure if it was the fact that this was all base malt (pils) caused the big increase in my efficiency, or if it was the adjustment to the mill at my LHBS (it was acting up so the owner adjusted it for me and the crush could definitely have been finer than in previous batches). Perhaps it's time I replace the stainless braided hose I've had in my cooler/tun for the past year and a half?

Ended up using Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager yeast as the LHBS didn't have German Pils yeast. Had built up a 3L starter over the previous week. After 36 hrs at 53° I had krausen but no airlock activity. Doh! Not enough sanitized solution in the airlock. Dope.

After 8 days the gravity was down to around 1.021 and I pulled the carboy from the tub of water I was using to keep the temp down (floated 1L frozen water bottles in the water to help keep temp from climbing). Rasied the temp to 62° over a couple days for a d-rest. 3 days at the higher temp and it was down to 1.013. I removed the fermwrap and left it in the ambient temp of 54 in the basement.

After 2 weeks in the carboy, I racked to a 5 gal better bottle, and let it sit for another 8-9 days. Holding at 1.012. Decided to prep bottles (2 day soak, then dishwasher treatment) and bottle, knowing they would need a couple weeks to carb up, and then would lager them in the beer fridge for a month.

Bottled it on 4/3 so I figure one more week for the bottles in the closet, then to the beer fridge for a month.

Biggest concern... BUTTER!!!! Had a huge butter smell from the beer when I bottled. The final gravity ready was 1.012, the beer looked nice and clear, but it smelled. Never have I smelled the diacytl indicating butter odor in my homebrew. This was my first lager. I had already prepped everything, so I just sucked it up and bottled 50 bottles of buttery lager. Hoping that while carb'ing up, eating up the priming sugar, and then a month lagering will make a difference. Could be my first batch to dump if it doesn't...

[brewinhard]

At what temperature did you pitch your yeast into the wort? If you pitched the starter into warmer wort, then cooled down to your fermentation temps your yeast could have produced some diacetyl during their growth phase while at those warmer temps. When I do my diacetyl rests, I will usually raise the temp of the beer to at least 65F and even higher for 3-4 days or so towards the end of fermentation just to be sure to minimize any of that nasty byproduct. Pitching into cold wort (45-50F) really seems to help to keep that diacetyl production to a minimum as well providing you can than maintain proper fermentation temps as well (50F or so).

Are you positive it was diacetyl and not sulfur production?

[ziggy]

When the yeast eats the priming sugar it should mop up the diacetyl. You might want to carbonate upstairs in your house at about 68F to give it another diacetyl rest. If that doesn't work it should eventually go away. It takes a long time (2+months) but it might eventually get good.

Your other option is to krausen with some fresh yeast. Get a pack of yeast and make a small starter to get it going then dump it in. The fresh yeast will mop up the diacetyl and there will be fresher yeast in there for bottling.

[Ozwald]

At what temperature did you pitch your yeast into the wort? If you pitched the starter into warmer wort, then cooled down to your fermentation temps your yeast could have produced some diacetyl during their growth phase while at those warmer temps. When I do my diacetyl rests, I will usually raise the temp of the beer to at least 65F and even higher for 3-4 days or so towards the end of fermentation just to be sure to minimize any of that nasty byproduct. Pitching into cold wort (45-50F) really seems to help to keep that diacetyl production to a minimum as well providing you can than maintain proper fermentation temps as well (50F or so).

Are you positive it was diacetyl and not sulfur production?

Another thing to note, if you're pitching cold you'll need a huge starter. 3L is a bit on the low side if memory serves (I've done lagers in the past, but I'm not into them enough to justify the extra time. My blonde ale is pretty damn close & I can drink it on day 14.) I think Whitey had mentioned that it depends, but 5L+ was a better cold pitch. I remember them talking about it when both the boys were in the studio, but details are on the foggy side.

If it was in fact diacetyl, next time I would go a bit warmer & longer on your d-rest.

[jimlin]

When the yeast eats the priming sugar it should mop up the diacetyl. You might want to carbonate upstairs in your house at about 68F to give it another diacetyl rest. If that doesn't work it should eventually go away. It takes a long time (2+months) but it might eventually get good.

Your other option is to krausen with some fresh yeast. Get a pack of yeast and make a small starter to get it going then dump it in. The fresh yeast will mop up the diacetyl and there will be fresher yeast in there for bottling.

I'm carb'ing up on the second floor, in the upper 60s. Figured I'd give it a couple weeks at that temp and then lager in the beer fridge. Hoping the bottle carb'ing temps will help.

[jimlin]

At what temperature did you pitch your yeast into the wort? If you pitched the starter into warmer wort, then cooled down to your fermentation temps your yeast could have produced some diacetyl during their growth phase while at those warmer temps. When I do my diacetyl rests, I will usually raise the temp of the beer to at least 65F and even higher for 3-4 days or so towards the end of fermentation just to be sure to minimize any of that nasty byproduct. Pitching into cold wort (45-50F) really seems to help to keep that diacetyl production to a minimum as well providing you can than maintain proper fermentation temps as well (50F or so).

Are you positive it was diacetyl and not sulfur production?

Another thing to note, if you're pitching cold you'll need a huge starter. 3L is a bit on the low side if memory serves (I've done lagers in the past, but I'm not into them enough to justify the extra time. My blonde ale is pretty damn close & I can drink it on day 14.) I think Whitey had mentioned that it depends, but 5L+ was a better cold pitch. I remember them talking about it when both the boys were in the studio, but details are on the foggy side.

If it was in fact diacetyl, next time I would go a bit warmer & longer on your d-rest.

I'm trying to recall the pitch temp. I didn't write it in my notes. I know I chilled (kettle in the snow, basic wort chiller running cold ground water thru it) outside and also put the carboy in the beer fridge to get into the lower 50s.

Can't recall if I pitched then cooled more in the fridge, or cooled it in the fridge first. Doubt I would have pitched with it higher than the lower 50s range i was shooting to ferment at.

I went by JZ's yeast calculator. Intermittent shaking for a 1.052 OG lager calls for 2L. I stepped up my starter over a week to 3L to be safe. Honestly if I need to build a starter up to 5L for a 5 gal batch, it's just one more reason not to brew lagers.