How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

[Thirsty Boy]

Your edit though where you suggest not lifting the bag, suggests to me though, that you didn't read through the entire thread before you posted....

well there are 8 pages and my speed reading isn't that great

The BIAB thing isn't about just mashing in a bag and batch (or any) sparging, although thats obviously a really effective way to brew. BIAB is about mashing - not sparging - & boiling - all in the same vessel. The object being to cut the equipment, cost, time and space required to brew All Grain; down to the absolute minimum. Basically to make AG as attractive as possible to the new brewer.

I realise that but the bags I mention are for 25L boilers/fermenters which is why I refer to batch sparging.

I like the sentiments behind trying to simplify the process, but with reference to cost and simplicity, in the UK at least, legal kegs are costly and aren't the easiest thing for some people to convert, burners aren't cheap either. Then there's the lifting gear, if you have a block and tackle and a load bearing beam handy that's fine, but it's a little trickier if you don't, or want to brew outside.

Personally I have recommended to people who don't like DIY to mash in an unconverted cool box then dump the grains into a grain bag supported in a fermenter with tap and batch sparge, running off into a second fermenter.

Once the wort has been collected then it can be boiled in a large stock pot on the stove. I know a guy who is doing just that in Spain and apparently making great beer.

Sorry Daab... but once again... if you had read the 8 pages you would see that:

The pot in which you boil, and the burner/heat source you choose to boil with; are essentially not a limiting issue in the BIAB process. It is being done in converted kegs, stock-pots, plastic pots with electric elements, any sort of pot you like with an immesion electric element and even though it would require a lift... no reason why it couldn't be done on a stove top if yours can boil the volume of wort.

As a matter of fact, the converted keg is probably the least suitable pot of them all unless you cut the top off entirely instead of just cutting a hole.

If as you say, the bags you mention are for 25litre boiler/fermentors.. then they are pretty much not appropriate for full sized BIAB batches... nearly, but not quite. Only a couple of posts back.. I did the volume calculations for a 19litre finished batch that could be done in a 27litre boiler... but that was pushing it and required some variation of the process. So you are right.. you probably need at least a 35-40litre pot for BIAB and you could get away with a smaller boiler if you use a separate mash tun - but then you need a separate mash tun

The lifting gear... again (sigh) as has been repeatedly said in the previous posts in this thread - its a nice to have option but is in NO-WAY necessary. The bags (for a single batch) are simply not that heavy if you use the reccomended bag material. To prove this.. when I did a recent demonstration brew at my LHBS I pulled out and held up the bag for a 6.9kg gran bill beer, with one hand (went a little red in the face admittedly) and I'm not a big guy or anything. If I can do it one handed - you would have to have some serious physical issues to not be able to manage well enough with no lifting gear.

But.. if you wanted lifting gear - The clothes hoist in the average suburban back yard does the job admirably and frequently has a built in system for winding up slowly. Also its usually not too far from the laundry where you may well keep your water supply and sinks etc. A step ladder also makes a fine "frame" to lift from (see Goobers first BIAB)

Still... nothing wrong with the method you are recommending to people. I can see that it would work really well. Yet another way to skin the brewing cat. Cool

Thirsty

[DaaB]

Sorry Daab... but once again... if you had read the 8 pages you would see that:

The pot in which you boil, and the burner/heat source you choose to boil with; are essentially not a limiting issue in the BIAB process. It is being done in converted kegs, stock-pots, plastic pots with electric elements, any sort of pot you like with an immesion electric element and even though it would require a lift... no reason why it couldn't be done on a stove top if yours can boil the volume of wort.

As a matter of fact, the converted keg is probably the least suitable pot of them all unless you cut the top off entirely instead of just cutting a hole.

In which case I apologise, I wrongly assumed you where promoting the use of this system using a commercial beer keg.

The lifting gear... again (sigh) as has been repeatedly said in the previous posts in this thread - its a nice to have option but is in NO-WAY necessary. The bags (for a single batch) are simply not that heavy if you use the reccomended bag material. To prove this.. when I did a recent demonstration brew at my LHBS I pulled out and held up the bag for a 6.9kg gran bill beer, with one hand (went a little red in the face admittedly) and I'm not a big guy or anything. If I can do it one handed - you would have to have some serious physical issues to not be able to manage well enough with no lifting gear.

You haven't actually addressed this point (sigh) , you still have to lift a heavy bag full of water and grains out of the mash tun come boiler, manually or with mechanical assistance, and hold it up long enough for the wort to drain. Assuming this is a 23L batch with 6.9kg of grain and grain absorbs its own weight in liquid then that's around 37kg even if you aren't allowing for evaporation during the boil. Admittedly the bag will get lighter but you still have to stand there holding it while it drains (unless you have rigged up some sort of lifting gear).

As I mentioned earlier, I still reckon you should avoid lifting the bag at all. I'm not an advocate of producing a completely clear run off, in fact a slightly turbid run off is often considered to be beneficial to fermentation. However an excessively cloudy wort can have a detrimental effect on hop flavour as well as reduced flavour stability. It is also considered to result in premature staling and oxidation.

I know this method I mention requires one more item of equipment (ie a fermenter) but then this is a required piece of equipment any way assuming you aren't planning on fermenting in the mash tun/boiler also.

[Kacey]

Well I have been thinking of tossing this mr. beer plastic deal, but then it hit me! What better way to do a 2 1/2 gal batch of beer using the BIAB system and my small SS pot. There is no better way to do trial batches that don't have a huge investment, and using the BIAB system and the small volume I can brew more then once a week! Thanks for having this up on the forum.

[CaribouBill]

Well...I sorta use this method.

10 Gal Igloo
Big ass bag
drain the wort though spigot (what a strange word....)

last batch used 12.5 lb grain bill, o.g. 1.056...not too bad, was going for 52-54.

All grain brew day takes about 4.5-5 hrs (6+ with multiple containers).

I would have never tried this if I had not read about it in this thread. I'll still use a more traditional system for my big Belgians, but this is quick and I can do it in my kitchen...40 below in N. Maine keeps me inside in the winter...but putting the kettle in the snow gets the temp down quick.

[Thirsty Boy]

Daab,

I did, quite plainly address the issue of lifting the bag and the reason for the sigh is because I have ,as I said, done so several times before if you care to look back at the posts that have already been made on the subject.

- If you use the suggested material for the bag, the majority of the liquid drains out as you lift and therefore weighs nothing like the 37kg you suggest. I did mention that I could do it with one hand did I not?? How strong do you think I am?

You can lift the bag, let it drain a little, give it a light squeeze and toss it on your lawn all in about 20-30 seconds. If you are capable of holding a case of beer at chest height for 30 seconds.. you will be able to do it admirably

Again, reading the thread would have revealed a number of suggestions for how to go about BIAB with no lifting gear at all.. well... you might need access to a door knob.

Lifting gear makes it ridiculously easy, and allows you to drain the bag more thoroughly, giving you better efficiency. But it is not, repeat NOT necessary. Merely recommended.

As for turbid worts and not lifting the bag... If one were lautering the way you do, then absolutely moving or lifting the bag would interfere with the process.

BIAB however simply ignores the theories that warn about overly turbid wort, and discovers that they are largely wrong or at least overstated.

Even from a theory / brewing literature point of view, the points you make about turbid worts are far from universally accepted as true. My interpretation of the texts and studies that I have read lead me to believe that by far the most important reason brewers aim for a clear or relatively clear wort... is because it makes them feel better.

BIAB beers simply do not, as a trend, suffer particularly from the faults that you suggest should result from an excessively turbid wort.. and BIAB worts ARE very turbid. If they do, they do so in a very minimal way that I and many others are incapable of noticing. So I choose not to worry about it.

You can get clear wort by using a finer material... but then you DO need the lifting gear.....

Now. I'm not saying that you shouldn't recommend the way you do it to people, you should. It sounds good to me. And the advice you were giving about not lifting the bag is perfectly sound - for someone who was following your method. Its just that its not so accurate or relevant when applied to BIAB as the thread intends it to be described.

But thanks again for your input - every little thing that makes us think about this method, helps to refine it and make it better.

Kacey - I do exactly what you are suggesting. Its a great way to do lots of experimental batches and especially in small batch form is much less hassle than breaking out all yuor major AG gear for a 10litre batch.

Thirsty

[DaaB]

Ok that's the lifting sorted out although if you are after a clear run off as you say, a little extra planning is involved but I wouldn't want to hang 37 kg of any of my door handles.

BIAB however simply ignores the theories that warn about overly turbid wort, and discovers that they are largely wrong or at least overstated.

Even from a theory / brewing literature point of view, the points you make about turbid worts are far from universally accepted as true. My interpretation of the texts and studies that I have read lead me to believe that by far the most important reason brewers aim for a clear or relatively clear wort... is because it makes them feel better.

There are some issues with turbid worts that are outstanding but the issues of flavour, staling and oxidation are widely accepted which is why commercials and even small micro's go to great lengths to produce at least as reasonably clear wort, my own experiments also bear out that it has a hugely negative impact on hop flavour producing very dull tasting beers. The problem with self assessment of beers though is that one can become accustomed to lack of or off flavours, a case in point on a wide scale is the general acceptance of filtered and pasteurised kegs beers over properly stored and served cask conditioned beers.

[Thirsty Boy]

There are some issues with turbid worts that are outstanding but the issues of flavour, staling and oxidation are widely accepted which is why commercials and even small micro's go to great lengths to produce at least as reasonably clear wort, my own experiments also bear out that it has a hugely negative impact on hop flavour producing very dull tasting beers. The problem with self assessment of beers though is that one can become accustomed to lack of or off flavours, a case in point on a wide scale is the general acceptance of filtered and pasteurised kegs beers over properly stored and served cask conditioned beers.

Well, we'll just have to disagree on that one.

Widely accepted doesn't mean true, just widely accepted. To take your own example, filtered kegged flavourless macro lager.. is widely accepted as tasting good... but you and I would probably beg to differ.

IMHO the reason that most brewers try for clear wort is because they have been "told" about the negative effects of turbid worts, rather than because they have evidence that they are true. It is Lore not indisputable fact.. including the flavour, staling and oxidation part. I have read a number of reports and texts where the effects have been found to be minimal or non-existant.

Which is bourne out by my own experience where I find no overt difference between beers produced with crystal clear worts on my HERMS and beers produced via BIAB. I agree with what you say about self asessment, which is why I refer not only to my own beers (which I regularly have tasted by other brewers including both standard AG brewers, BIAB brewers and several pro-brewers who judge at international competitions. I also enter my beers into competitions for the feedback) but include those brewed by several other BIAB brewers.

I simply do not find or recieve reports of the defects you suggest should be there. Or not at a rate signifcantly higher than for beers produced by other methods.

But we should probably stop argueing about it.. I'm not likely to convince you and visa versa. So our opinions and experiences are different. Ces La Vie. Its a wonderful diverse world is it not?

Mainly I have been differeing with you on these points because I dont want people to think that you cant produce a beer via BIAB that is every bit as good and free from defect, as could be produced by any of the other methods.. or pretty damn close at least. You very much can.

The skill, knowledge and care taken by the brewer is by far the most important thing in brewing - No need to argue about that.

Cheers mate

Thirsty

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Well I have been thinking of tossing this mr. beer plastic deal, but then it hit me! What better way to do a 2 1/2 gal batch of beer using the BIAB system and my small SS pot. There is no better way to do trial batches that don't have a huge investment, and using the BIAB system and the small volume I can brew more then once a week! Thanks for having this up on the forum.

Absolutely! Particularly in the now-dwindling cooler months, I have really enjoyed brewing on the stovetop in my kitchen. My 20litre pot is plenty enough for the 7litre batches I've been cranking through at a cost of a couple of Australian dollars a shot. A small quantity of hot wort is easier to deal with than a humongous tidal wave of same.

A good extraction fan or rangehood is nice to have though, so that the aroma disappears before the wife gets home from work.