Aeration of Starter,...NOT Wort,...Jamil ?

[bub]

First of all Ditto to Push.... and snuggles too

Thanks guys, awesome forum!

An awesome forum like this is made by awesome contributors like yourself... keep up the good work and pass it on.
BUB

[madmacaw]

"...I'm thinking that I'm still going to oxygenate my wort for a minute or two..."

I would hit the wort full blast for 5-6 minutes to ensure enough goes into solution. The higher the SG, the harder it is to get oxygen into solution. This is because of increased viscosity. In these cases it may take 10-12 minutes. Just make sure you do this BEFORE you pitch the yeast!

"...but I know now NOT to oxygenate my starter"..."

Actually, you should still O2 the starter, just do it for 30 seconds or so and BEFORE you pitch the yeast.


And... in regards to "grey areas here" there aren't any (sorry PushEject). Read some reputable professional texts on this topic and you will see this is uniformly discussed. Even so, individual situations may disallow the following of this "to the letter". The minimum practices will work, just not as optimally.

Follow this postees intent with my comments added and this would be the minimal, but appropriate way to proceed. Keep in mind that the optimal practices are followed in the professional world not just with proper fermentation in mind, they are also counting on these methodologies to yield a large amount of highly vital and viable yeast for repitching and eventually, reculturing. It can work the same way at home if you harvest yeast from the secondary or tertiary vessel.

Whatever you do, don't pitch or put wort on top of a primary fermentation trub! Any problems that exist in the trub will then be multiplied into subsequent batches. Remember... the yeast that has settled at this point has done so because it has petered out. It will do you no good to keep reintroducing this yeast into new batches as they have and will continue to mutate and are metabolically deficient in their ability to properly ferment the new wort. Another way to put it is... you will get more bulk, but few cells among that bulk are able to metabolize wort sugars properly or optimally.

Then there is the issue of huge amounts of proteins and vegetal matter that should never be reintroduced into new wort. Within that mass is a significant amount of bacteria, some of which have adapted to breaking down dextrins after the amount of sugar dropped in the wort. The other reasons are bad enough, but this last one is a biggie! Sanitization is NOT the same as sterilization. With sanitization, you are knocking the bacterial/mold/wild yeast population down to a more manageable level to allow your yeast to dominate. With sterilization, 100% of all living organisms are killed. Therefore, with sanitization, there is bacteria still present. Bacteria grow at 10 times the speed of yeast. This means that between pitching and the lag between the onset of fermentation they will be multiplying like hell. The idea of properly sized starters is to attempt to out compete these bacteria. As an example... your sanitizer states it is 99% effective. So, if there were 100,000 bacterial cells (there actually would be more than this, it is just easier to explain this way) and there were 100,000 yeast cells pitched: 100,000 X .99 = 10,000 bacterial cells. Since they grow at 10 times the rate of yeast and there is a lag of 4-6 hours (optimally) where little yeast action is occuring, you can see the problem here!

I've mentioned these things a number of times in other forums and typically get the "I've been doing primary trub pitches for years and it worked fine..." comment. This may seem true... you get a quick, vigorous appearing ferment, but if you were to brew the exact same beer numerous times and kept good records you will note that the FG will rarely be the same. Also, one reason people think this is working is because they consume the beer quickly before the symptoms begin to appear. While I certainly like that idea , it does not allow you to see how your proceedures work over time. If you were to keep a 6 pack of each of the same beer, but brewed at different times, and sample them over time you will discover that some will become infected and most will experience significant flavor drift as well as some will become overcarbonated due to hyperattenuation.

The hallmark of a good brewer is consistency. The only way to know you have achieved consistency is to brew the same beer numerous times and compare the results.

Sorry for the length, but I thought I'd follow through with the logic of why these practices are valid. I hope this has led to better understanding.

Eric Watson
Green Bay Distilling
Green Bay, WI

[PDub]

I dunno Eric, sounds like a bunch of voodoo hooey and personal conjecture. I think you made it all up, doesn't sound very scientific.

Just kidding! Damn that was an informative post(s).

[Push Eject]

Read some reputable professional texts on this topic and you will see this is uniformly discussed.

I learn all I ever need from the BrewCaster each month and listening to Lunch Meet.

Flufah,
Push Eject

[Speyedr]

First of all Ditto to Push.... and snuggles too

Thanks guys, awesome forum!

An awesome forum like this is made by awesome contributors like yourself... keep up the good work and pass it on.
BUB

...And Snuggles to you too Bub, for being so supportive and so ..... well, so damned Snuggly!!!

Kisses!

[madmacaw]

Read some reputable professional texts on this topic and you will see this is uniformly discussed.

I learn all I ever need from the BrewCaster each month and listening to Lunch Meet.

Flufah,
Push Eject

Actually if I keep on typing you won't need to read any of that boring, dry crap anyway (at least on this topic). Ohh... wait a minute, I might have just described my posts!!!

Although it is useful info, the experience is like watching paint dry! I wish this stuff was more accessible to more brewers of all types, but these texts tend to be very expensive and some are written in such a way that you need a translator to decipher what the hell they are writing about!

[crazymonkey15]

Eric,

On a homebrew scale do you advocate washing the yeast that is harvested before reuse? And since the yeast that has settled out after primary fermentation has "has petered out" do you recommend cropping yeast from the top of the fermenter during fermentation instead of taking it from the bottom afterwards?

And man do you ever need to be on another Sunday Show.

[chrisknight]

So. My O2 regulator & bottle & SS stone should still be used? I blast the hell out of the starter & the wort. But never more than once. What is the proper practice?
I do my starters like this:
Click here

Thanks,
Chris

BTW... I'm new. Hi all!!!