Brewing TV - 10 - Cascadian Dark Ale Debate

[crupp]

OK. I tried to read the whole thread, but I got bored. I think the point that everyone is missing is that once again BYO and Zymurgy are the same magazine.

[thatguy314]

But its called Brutal Bitter, not an American Bitter. Because Rogue doesn't really brew to a guideline. With the blackend BB, they took a cue from a homebrewer and made a beer. I doubt that homebrewer thinks they have influenced anything, and Id bet they arent trying to kickstart a style.

True. But if you've got a trend of these schwartzbier like hoppy ales emerging, I would say BBB is indicative of this trend, not an entirely independent enterprise. I'm sure he wasn't trying to define a new style. We as the consumers and competition homebrewers are. Since we are the ones drawing the circle defining what's in and out of style, I would draw my circle to include BBB. I don't care if it's called American or whatever (Cascadian irritates me for a number of reasons, but that's besides the point). What matters is that I think this beer is part of the trend to add low-flavor roasted malt to hoppy beers, albeit John's take on this trend.

[JP]

But its called Brutal Bitter, not an American Bitter. Because Rogue doesn't really brew to a guideline. With the blackend BB, they took a cue from a homebrewer and made a beer. I doubt that homebrewer thinks they have influenced anything, and Id bet they arent trying to kickstart a style.

True. But if you've got a trend of these schwartzbier like hoppy ales emerging, I would say BBB is indicative of this trend, not an entirely independent enterprise. I'm sure he wasn't trying to define a new style. We as the consumers and competition homebrewers are. Since we are the ones drawing the circle defining what's in and out of style, I would draw my circle to include BBB. I don't care if it's called American or whatever (Cascadian irritates me for a number of reasons, but that's besides the point). What matters is that I think this beer is part of the trend to add low-flavor roasted malt to hoppy beers, albeit John's take on this trend.

I dont see how that is different enough to have it's own style. A dark, slightly roasty, semi-dry, hoppy beer? Hoppy schwartzbier, in a sense? i don't find that would warrant its own category.

[thatguy314]

But its called Brutal Bitter, not an American Bitter. Because Rogue doesn't really brew to a guideline. With the blackend BB, they took a cue from a homebrewer and made a beer. I doubt that homebrewer thinks they have influenced anything, and Id bet they arent trying to kickstart a style.

True. But if you've got a trend of these schwartzbier like hoppy ales emerging, I would say BBB is indicative of this trend, not an entirely independent enterprise. I'm sure he wasn't trying to define a new style. We as the consumers and competition homebrewers are. Since we are the ones drawing the circle defining what's in and out of style, I would draw my circle to include BBB. I don't care if it's called American or whatever (Cascadian irritates me for a number of reasons, but that's besides the point). What matters is that I think this beer is part of the trend to add low-flavor roasted malt to hoppy beers, albeit John's take on this trend.

I dont see how that is different enough to have it's own style. A dark, slightly roasty, semi-dry, hoppy beer? Hoppy schwartzbier, in a sense? i don't find that would warrant its own category.

It's an ale (with distinct esters in BBB). It uses american hops. The IBU range is much higher than schwartzbier. Those are 3 characteristics which would disqualify it from schwartzbier.

Look at the kit you guys sell at morebeer. If the internet doesn't like to me (which of course it never does) it's really quite citrus-hop forward.

Grains
9lbs 2-row
2.5lbs Munich
1.25lbs Crystal 60l
10.5oz Carafoam
11oz Carafa Special II

Hops
1.5oz Newport - 90min
1oz Newport -60min
2oz Amarillo -1min
2oz Amarillo- Flameout
1oz Amarillo- Dry hop Secondary

That's clearly not a schwartzbier. I know the original brutal bitter is more a of a crystal hop showcase, which is more of a hallertau-type. Maybe the commercial BBB is more of a schwartz-ale if the recipe is consistent.

In any event, it's not a schwartzbier, and the use of roast malts would disqualify it from the base categories. Right now it's clearly a specialty beer. The question for us is are there are there enough homebrew examples of a style to make it for BJCP? Clearly we don't need commercial examples for it, or there wouldn't be a classic american pils. But if people aren't going to brew it, then it doesn't deserve a category (see malt liquor).

[JP]

Im not suggesting that BBB is a Schwartzbeer. I'm saying that a beer that is hoppy and dark does not need its own category. Otherwise I'd want a Concordican Oat Stout for my Oat Stout, since it is a little lower in % and not roasty.

[San_Diego_Matt]

since it is a little lower in % and not roasty.

so you're saying it's weinery?

[thatguy314]

Im not suggesting that BBB is a Schwartzbeer. I'm saying that a beer that is hoppy and dark does not need its own category. Otherwise I'd want a Concordican Oat Stout for my Oat Stout, since it is a little lower in % and not roasty.

That's like saying that a schwartzbier and an American stout are close enough to be the same beer because they're both dark and hoppy.

Why does oatmeal stout need its own category? There are dry ones and sweet ones. We have dry stouts and sweet stouts. Can't you just enter an oatmeal stout as one of them?

Why is a dortmunder export its own category? Couldn't we just expand Helles and Pils categories enough to fit them in? Michael Jackson certainly put forth a lot of effort to have it defined as its own category, some people did not (at least initially) buy his argument.

If enough people brew is, and it has enough of its own unique characteristics, why can't there be a category? If a lot of people started making a style of stout really similar to yours, maybe it could branch off.

Maybe originally it could fit into the interpretation of another style (as with oatmeal stout). I don't think this is the case with these beers. I would argue that the flavor profile of these beers is distinctly different from any existing (non-specialty) BJCP category. The lack of substantial maltiness and overt roastiness disqualify them as porters and stouts. They're too dark to be an american brown (and also don't have enough maltiness for commercial examples, I can't speak about all the hoppy homebrews, but most have still had a strong malt backbone). The ale fermentation and use of american hops disqualify them from schwartzier. Whatever the hype, they don't fit into an existing category. So to me the question of whether or not to grant them a category is whether people are brewing them, not whether they could fit into something else, because they would be judged quite poorly if they did.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Brew a really good version of a BIPA/CDA or whatever you call it. Enter it into your own morebeer forum comp as a stout, porter, schwartzbier, IPA and specialty beer. Then tell me where it does best.

[Chupa LaHomebrew]

The biggest point to be made (not that I really care all that much about what people call it) is that geographic region has little to do with style in an age when we can get whatever ingredients we want for any part of the world. I don't buy the CDA name. It has too much regional pride built in, and clearly there are great examples being brewed in other areas of the country and even the world.

I don't care about the contradiction in the name "Black IPA". Everybody understands what it is and it's not pretentious. And, it is clearly a style. It is more than just an IPA with some Sinnamar dumped in. JP, get out there and try some and you will see that it is a style and some day the BJCP will probably have guidelines for it. Till then, there is the specialty beer category.