Brewing TV - 10 - Cascadian Dark Ale Debate

[Reposado]

I second the black bitter.

That works too, anything but CDA, balk

[thatguy314]

what sort of time frame are we talking about for these beers?

rogue's beer, Barley Brown's turmoil, and Walking Man's Big black homo

3 years ago? 5 years ago? 10 years ago?

Rogue's Black Brutal Bitter has been around for a long time. Though that's more of a black ESB than a black IPA. tasty though.

UPDATE: Just finished the thread and saw the black bitter. was going to suggest that myself. i like that one too.

[11amas]

Yes, black bitter is much less douchy than "cascadian". cascadian sounds like something you order to wash down semen you just gargled.

[Reposado]

Yes, black bitter is much less douchy than "cascadian". cascadian sounds like something you order to wash down semen you just gargled.

Yes, a Cascadian Douchebag Ale!

[TastyMcD]

I am sitting here sipping on my 3rd Imperial Janet's and I am kind of wondering. Isn't this a India Black Ale, Cascadian Dark Ale or Black IPA? I have only had 3 commercial beers that could fall into this category and they all really resemble the Janet's Brown. I don't have Tasty's recipe handy, but I don't remember any Carafa II included in the grain bill. Maybe I haven't had a so-called CDA, but I consider Tasty to be the originator.

Also, I love the BTV show. It kills a good 30 minutes at work every Friday.

I doubt I've originated anything but I'd like to think I've made more awareness of how a stronger American Brown Ale fills a void in the beer flavor spectrum. (But just for the record: I first designed and brewed Janet's Brown Ale in 1996. Now I just need to form my own republic. Actually all credit for the style goes to the homebrewers in Texas that came up with the American Brown Ale. Cascadia can take credit for being part of Canada and the great weed in Humboldt. )

The "resemblance" you're associating between BIPA/CDA and Janet's Brown is the combination of hoppy and dark. I've found this to be commercially rare until recently as this new "style" emerges. My point is in how the beer is made dark. I generally like BIPA/CDA and I as well find similarities to IJBA but I think a better beer is made by using chocolate malt instead of or in addition to Carafa. It's the chocolate citrus-piney combination that makes these beers good and color is just a byproduct. Breweries like Stone have this figured out.

I guess last year will have been the last year they called it "Black India Pale Ale" at the GABF. I hear they are now calling it "American-Style India Black Ale". I have no idea what it has to do with India unless that's just a way of kicking the Cascadians in the balls for suggesting it be called CDA. Look for more name changes in the future.



Tasty

[thatguy314]

I doubt I've originated anything but I'd like to think I've made more awareness of how a stronger American Brown Ale fills a void in the beer flavor spectrum. (But just for the record: I first designed and brewed Janet's Brown Ale in 1996. Now I just need to form my own republic. Actually all credit for the style goes to the homebrewers in Texas that came up with the American Brown Ale. Cascadia can take credit for being part of Canada and the great weed in Humboldt. )

Absolutely you've made a substantial awareness among beer drinkers about how brown ales CAN taste, as the commercial versions more and more approximate a stronger, more bitter english brown.

The "resemblance" you're associating between BIPA/CDA and Janet's Brown is the combination of hoppy and dark. I've found this to be commercially rare until recently as this new "style" emerges. My point is in how the beer is made dark. I generally like BIPA/CDA and I as well find similarities to IJBA but I think a better beer is made by using chocolate malt instead of or in addition to Carafa. It's the chocolate citrus-piney combination that makes these beers good and color is just a byproduct. Breweries like Stone have this figured out.

Absolutely correct. I agree with you that using cinnamar/artificial color to simply achieve a dark color is unworth of a style. However, I think there is a space on the flavor spectrum for hoppy beers with some dark flavors, similar to a schwartzbier, but with an ale. Are many commercial brewers doing this? Not from what I can tell, but I think the space in flavor-spectrum exists. These of course differ from an american brown sustantially. Even Janets, which is on the stronger, more bitter, hoppier end of style, is fundamentally malt-balanced, with the hops as supporting structure. Obviously the beer would be less interesting as a whole if it were just the malt there, with little hop structure. Same for hoppy american stouts.

Surely we can invision an inverse situation, where we have the same color spectrum, but let the malts take a back seat and the hops speak forward. Yes we want the hops to speak in the forefront, but with the Hoppy American Black Ales we want some of those dark roasty/toasty notes in the back and supporting flavor structure to add complexity. I tend to think that the many of the best IPAs are structured like Teddy Roosevelt. The malt backbone speaks softly but carries a big stick (the hops). That's not to say that celebration ale / tasty IPA arent' great too... I just think of them in a different category, and that level of maltiness turned black would kind of push the beer more towards the american brown / stout category again.

[JohnF]

Nobody gets butt hurt over: English Brown, Irish Red, or Munich Helles. Why would Cascadian Dark be any different?

When was the last time you were in Munich and heard the phrase "Munich Helles". I'm fine with people in Munich saying "Cascadian Dark Ale" if they find it useful.

Never mind the fact that Greg Noonan didn't brew a Munich Helles 15 years before anyone in Munich did, you know, like he did with the black IPA.

[11amas]

Something I don't hear much in this conversation is the distinction between BJCP and "generally recognized styles"; there are tons of oddball styles that you see in GABF like Extra Pale Ale that aren't BJCP; I am actually fine with all of these "varietals" or sub-styles but not really for competition. I think there should be more to a style than pushing a limit like overhopping an APA or adding de-bittered color to an IPA. I wonder what JZ would say?