BerlinerWiess - Lacto Fermentation Not sour??

[Baxter]

So I'm a bit baffled by this. I tried to make a berlinerwiess with a primary fermentation using lactobacillus delbrueckii over the course of about a week to sour it up before pitching an ale strain to finish it off. I grew the lacto up in a starter for about 10 days before pitching it into the wort, and pitched it with a 1.035 wort in a bucket at 80 degrees (I was too nervous to ferment with bugs in my carboys). The ferment was pretty active but never really got sour. I ended up pitching the ale strain in about 7 days into fermentation to go ahead and ferment the wort out. The beer is now about 3 weeks in and its just now taking a slight sour note. Is this right? I was under the impression that a lactobacillus fermentation would sour the wort pretty quickly and bu now it should be pretty damn sour. I'm pretty sure the lacto was a viable pitch as there was lots of active fermentation, so I'm a bit baffled, What say you BN Army? Should I toss it? Let it ride and see what happens with it?

[spiderwrangler]

If you got an active ferment with lacto, you might have gotten some yeast in there too. The breakdown of glucose from 6 carbon sugar to 3 carbon can go one of two ways. Ethanol fermentation cleaves off a CO2, and the remaining 2 carbon molecule gets converted into ethanol. In lactic fermentation, the 3 carbon molecule is processed directly into lactic acid, without gas production. Some lactic strains apparently swing both ways, but I don't think that you would have what you would characterize as an active ferment with lacto alone. Granted, I have not brewed this style, so my comments are based on my understanding of the pathways.

[Ozwald]

Give it time. Lots and lots of time. I've noticed a bit of the same thing in my experience with lacto. I'm a sour beer guy in the sense that if it doesn't turn my face inside out, it's not sour. I've never brewed a Berlinner Weisse I liked in the first year. I still have a full keg of my first attempt at sour brewing & while it's so tempting to tap, I'm holding out for at least another couple of years.

Something you might want to check on while you wait would be the pH. L. delbrueckii needs ~5.4 to 4.6 to get it kicking the way you're expecting it to. It's more important early in the ferment process for adequate growth. If you didn't get the growth you need, don't despair, it'll still get there albeit much more slowly.

[brewinhard]

I have had quite vigorous fermentations using WY lactobacillus D. I do agree with Oz. Once the primary fermentation is complete your beer may taste slightly tart at best. Give it at least 6 mos warm aging to continue to allow the beer to sour. I prefer to rack to a keg to warm condition under CO2 pressure. The last Berliner I made fermented with a straight lacto culture pitch (several big stepups with no oxygen) and fermented at around 100F for 3 days before adding my neutral german ale yeast. After primary was complete, the beer was barely even tart (even though the starter wort was ripping sour). I kegged it and let it sit in my basement for 10 mos before tapping it. That beer soured quite nicely and made it to the final round of last year's NHC.

So as stated above, give your berliner some time to age. If you prefer, you can dose it with a small amount of brett for complexity which some judges prefer (but not all). Next time when attempting this brew, try fermenting your lacto a bit warmer if possible (use a brewbelt, fermwrap, summer heat, etc) and you may get some earlier sourness.

[BrewerJ]

+1 3-6 months of warm aging in a keg has been my experience. I have brewed lots of berliners using many different techniques. IMO the best ones come from time and patience. It might only be slightly sour now but taste it every month or so and one day you will make that face like you just bit into a lemon. You didn't really mention your recipe, did you use hops? If so, how many ibus and how many ounces? Lacto hates hops and really inhibits its growth.

[maxpower2078]

I thought I would piggy back on this thread, don't kill me but I just did a BW and am trying to find out if I should even pitch a SAC yeast

I did a lacto starter with WLP677 and 1/2g of pasteurized apple juice for 4-5 days around 100F. It was pretty much done

that was pitched into 2 ~6g of 1.030 wort around the same 100F wort and took off very quickly.

I wanted to give the lacto a head start to pucker it up, I checked after 2 days and it was at 4brix or 1.007 per brewzor and at 3 days (tonight) it was 2.75 and 3 on the other carboy or 1.000 and 1.001 per brewzor again. It seems like it is still moving, slowly but still moving.

I have tasted it and I don't get a big pucker taste actually but then again I am wondering if that is because the sample is in the range of 85-90F.

Either way, is it even worth pitching a SAC yeast at this point if I really don't need any more attenuation?

[brewinhard]

If you are at that low of a gravity then there really is nothing left for the sacc to even eat. So I would probably just leave it out at this point. As stated above, just be sure to let it age properly to allow the sourness and acidity to develop.

[Baxter]

The recipe was right out of brewing classic styles. Close to equal parts of pilsener and wheat, 1 oz hallertaur for 15 min boil.