And the 2009 first round results are in...

[Field]

Just got my scoresheets - Northeast

hard luck loser - Belgian Golden Strong with a score of 41


unexplainable judging - on my old ale
'tastes aged', 'some hints of oxidation', 'notes of sour'

BJCP guidelines for 19A Old Ale
Aroma: ... Some alcohol and oxidative notes are acceptable, akin to those found in Sherry or Port. Hop aromas not usually present due to extended aging.
Appearance: ...Age and oxidation may darken the beer further. ... head; may be adversely affected by alcohol and age.
Flavor: the impression of bitterness often depends on amount of aging... Extended aging may contribute oxidative flavors... Some wood-aged or blended versions may have a lactic or Brettanomyces character; but this is optional and should not be too strong (enter as a specialty beer if it is).
Mouthfeel: ... older examples may be lower in body due to continued attenuation during conditioning. ... depending on age and conditioning.
History: ... Often had age-related character (lactic, Brett, oxidation, leather) associated with “stale” beers. Used as stock ales for blending or enjoyed at full strength (stale or stock refers to beers that were aged or stored for a significant period of time).


so you're saying you're taking points off for MEETING the style guidelines .. THANKS!!

if you don't know a style, then don't judge it
if you have to judge a style you don't know, then keep the style guidelines next to you, and review what they say before writing a comment that is 100% bullshit

[Dirk McLargeHuge]

Just got my scoresheets - Northeast

hard luck loser - Belgian Golden Strong with a score of 41


unexplainable judging - on my old ale
'tastes aged', 'some hints of oxidation', 'notes of sour'

BJCP guidelines for 19A Old Ale
Aroma: ... Some alcohol and oxidative notes are acceptable, akin to those found in Sherry or Port. Hop aromas not usually present due to extended aging.
Appearance: ...Age and oxidation may darken the beer further. ... head; may be adversely affected by alcohol and age.
Flavor: the impression of bitterness often depends on amount of aging... Extended aging may contribute oxidative flavors... Some wood-aged or blended versions may have a lactic or Brettanomyces character; but this is optional and should not be too strong (enter as a specialty beer if it is).
Mouthfeel: ... older examples may be lower in body due to continued attenuation during conditioning. ... depending on age and conditioning.
History: ... Often had age-related character (lactic, Brett, oxidation, leather) associated with “stale” beers. Used as stock ales for blending or enjoyed at full strength (stale or stock refers to beers that were aged or stored for a significant period of time).


so you're saying you're taking points off for MEETING the style guidelines .. THANKS!!

if you don't know a style, then don't judge it
if you have to judge a style you don't know, then keep the style guidelines next to you, and review what they say before writing a comment that is 100% bullshit

We had a hefeweiss that scored 39.5 in Bluebonnet. In NHC we 27 points. The wit that scored 23 points at Bluebonnet got 33 at NHC. No rhyme or reason. The wit especially. In both comps, one judge said the beer was thin, the other said it was medium mouthfeel. Honestly, I'm beginning to lose faith in judging and may not enter any more comps.

[TastyMcD]

No rhyme or reason....... I'm beginning to lose faith in judging.....

Dirk,

I've been where you are right now some time ago. I once had a beer judged first in the second round of the national competition and have the same beer get a 26 on the very same day at one of my local country fairs. I think it CAN be explained. In fact, it can be proven. But do we really want to go there? Do we really want to in any way be critical of a guy who gives up his Saturday away from his family to drink our crappy beers? Or even our fantastic beers that he drinks after the palate busting crappy beer.

If beer judges were busting down the doors to the judging sites we would need a way to decide who gets in. But they are not so we don't need to institute a lottery or subjective testing.

I've been fortunate to see competitions ran from the inside. One thing is always consistent. Judges are very serious about what they are doing. I've never seen anyone take the responsibility lightly. That said, all the good intentions in the world are not going to offset a dead palate or a mis-understanding of the style. That's a lot of "rhyme and reason".

So don't lose faith. Just know that there are going to be differences of opinion and sometimes you'll be lucky and sometimes you won't. One judging is not the definitive opinion on a beer. Nor is two when the scores are varied. Over time, you'll get to know who the good judges are in your region. Although they aren't right all the time, they get it right a larger percentage of the time.

Now go out and hug the next judge you see. He needs the love.

Tasty

[Dirk McLargeHuge]

No rhyme or reason....... I'm beginning to lose faith in judging.....

Dirk,

I've been where you are right now some time ago. I once had a beer judged first in the second round of the national competition and have the same beer get a 26 on the very same day at one of my local country fairs. I think it CAN be explained. In fact, it can be proven. But do we really want to go there? Do we really want to in any way be critical of a guy who gives up his Saturday away from his family to drink our crappy beers? Or even our fantastic beers that he drinks after the palate busting crappy beer.

If beer judges were busting down the doors to the judging sites we would need a way to decide who gets in. But they are not so we don't need to institute a lottery or subjective testing.

I've been fortunate to see competitions ran from the inside. One thing is always consistent. Judges are very serious about what they are doing. I've never seen anyone take the responsibility lightly. That said, all the good intentions in the world are not going to offset a dead palate or a mis-understanding of the style. That's a lot of "rhyme and reason".

So don't lose faith. Just know that there are going to be differences of opinion and sometimes you'll be lucky and sometimes you won't. One judging is not the definitive opinion on a beer. Nor is two when the scores are varied. Over time, you'll get to know who the good judges are in your region. Although they aren't right all the time, they get it right a larger percentage of the time.

Now go out and hug the next judge you see. He needs the love.

Tasty

I'm not trying to be critical of the judges or the organizers. On another thread we've been talking about regional differences and on another about everyone's palates being different. I understand that judging is subjective. And I'm not complaining that I didn't win. I honestly didn't expect to win. And I've listened to enough of the shows about judging to know how many other variables are involved. But so far, all I've really learned from these competitions is that it costs about $20 to ship beer.

[Field]

We had a hefeweiss that scored 39.5 in Bluebonnet. In NHC we 27 points. The wit that scored 23 points at Bluebonnet got 33 at NHC. No rhyme or reason. The wit especially. In both comps, one judge said the beer was thin, the other said it was medium mouthfeel. Honestly, I'm beginning to lose faith in judging and may not enter any more comps.

nah, just keep entering multiple contests with the same beer, you'll get judges that don't know a style in some, or that are just plain bad judges, but if you have enough scoresheets you can throw those out


my biggest pet peeve is when points are deducted for characteristics that are part of the guidelines, if a judge perceives a beer as being too hoppy or too dark, or too high in a carbonation for a style I'm ok with that - it's what they actually perceived, on the other hand if they perceive something that is in the guidelines and deduct points because of that then they need to learn how to do a better job

they are guidelines for us brewers, if we want to brew a style they help guide us

they aren't guidelines for judges, they're the rules

I understand judges will sometimes have to judge styles they don't know, look at the guidelines if you don't know

[wezil]

Just got my scoresheets - Northeast

hard luck loser - Belgian Golden Strong with a score of 41


unexplainable judging - on my old ale
'tastes aged', 'some hints of oxidation', 'notes of sour'

BJCP guidelines for 19A Old Ale
Aroma: ... Some alcohol and oxidative notes are acceptable, akin to those found in Sherry or Port. Hop aromas not usually present due to extended aging.
Appearance: ...Age and oxidation may darken the beer further. ... head; may be adversely affected by alcohol and age.
Flavor: the impression of bitterness often depends on amount of aging... Extended aging may contribute oxidative flavors... Some wood-aged or blended versions may have a lactic or Brettanomyces character; but this is optional and should not be too strong (enter as a specialty beer if it is).
Mouthfeel: ... older examples may be lower in body due to continued attenuation during conditioning. ... depending on age and conditioning.
History: ... Often had age-related character (lactic, Brett, oxidation, leather) associated with “stale” beers. Used as stock ales for blending or enjoyed at full strength (stale or stock refers to beers that were aged or stored for a significant period of time).


so you're saying you're taking points off for MEETING the style guidelines .. THANKS!!

if you don't know a style, then don't judge it
if you have to judge a style you don't know, then keep the style guidelines next to you, and review what they say before writing a comment that is 100% bullshit

Field, I feel your pain. This one of the things I find very confusing and frustrating regarding the score sheets.
Are the comments notes about what the judge tastes? If this is the case then what he was noting were good qualities of your old ale.

OR

Is he making comments about what he was marking your score down for? In this case he is an idiot.

My opinion is that it is probably the first scenario. This is where I personally get extremely frustrated (along with this whole era of "we gotta be positive" bullshit). If you are only going to give me half of the points available in a category its great if you tell why I got the points but it is a whole lot more helpful if you would tell me why I did not get the other half. I sent my beer in to be judged if I want someone to tell me I make good beer I will give it to friends and family

Brad

[Dirk McLargeHuge]

Just got my scoresheets - Northeast

hard luck loser - Belgian Golden Strong with a score of 41


unexplainable judging - on my old ale
'tastes aged', 'some hints of oxidation', 'notes of sour'

BJCP guidelines for 19A Old Ale
Aroma: ... Some alcohol and oxidative notes are acceptable, akin to those found in Sherry or Port. Hop aromas not usually present due to extended aging.
Appearance: ...Age and oxidation may darken the beer further. ... head; may be adversely affected by alcohol and age.
Flavor: the impression of bitterness often depends on amount of aging... Extended aging may contribute oxidative flavors... Some wood-aged or blended versions may have a lactic or Brettanomyces character; but this is optional and should not be too strong (enter as a specialty beer if it is).
Mouthfeel: ... older examples may be lower in body due to continued attenuation during conditioning. ... depending on age and conditioning.
History: ... Often had age-related character (lactic, Brett, oxidation, leather) associated with “stale” beers. Used as stock ales for blending or enjoyed at full strength (stale or stock refers to beers that were aged or stored for a significant period of time).


so you're saying you're taking points off for MEETING the style guidelines .. THANKS!!

if you don't know a style, then don't judge it
if you have to judge a style you don't know, then keep the style guidelines next to you, and review what they say before writing a comment that is 100% bullshit

Field, I feel your pain. This one of the things I find very confusing and frustrating regarding the score sheets.
Are the comments notes about what the judge tastes? If this is the case then what he was noting were good qualities of your old ale.

OR

Is he making comments about what he was marking your score down for? In this case he is an idiot.

My opinion is that it is probably the first scenario. This is where I personally get extremely frustrated (along with this whole era of "we gotta be positive" bullshit). If you are only going to give me half of the points available in a category its great if you tell why I got the points but it is a whole lot more helpful if you would tell me why I did not get the other half. I sent my beer in to be judged if I want someone to tell me I make good beer I will give it to friends and family

Brad

I had a judge at Bluebonnet who put the points beside his comments. I thought that was fantastic, because it showed what he was looking for, and what wasn't up to his standards.

[MattSF]

Hm I sort of found out about this by accident thanks to the NHC sending out an email about people having trouble with the PDF submission form. Anyway, here's the site URL for entry info (also not in the email that was sent)

http://www.beertown.org/events/nhc/shipping.html

Have people received any more info, certificates, etc via postal mail? I got nothin so far.