1st lager... Question about floor malted Bo pils malt

[grainman]

The yeast are still cleaning up during the lagering phase, but if you give your beer a good, several day diacetyl rest in the 60's then you should be okay to drop it close to freezing if possible. I find a good halfway point and lager around 35 degrees for 4-5 weeks before serving. And yes, you can carbonate the beer during this time if you prefer. Just give the beer a couple weeks lagering before starting to carb it up. I would also get your diacetyl rest temps up to around 65degF as this will really help to accelerate the cleaning up of any buttery flavors produced by the yeast. BTW, which strain are you going to use?

Ok I'll bring up the D rest to 65F .... Using wyeast 2001 urquell strain.

[ajdelange]

Properly managed this malt makes an absolutely delicious Pils but it's aging history is interesting. As soon as it is ready to drink it will wow you. Noticeably better than the pneumatically malted stuff from Weyermann's. But then 3 months or so in it starts to fall back a bit and you might conclude the pneumatically malted stuff better. But then after another couple of months it re-emerges to top the modern stuff again.

I've only used it with the Budvar strain (because beers brewed with that strain taste more like Budvar than ones brewed with the Urquell strain taste like Urquell, IMO).

To get the best result is a lot of work but well worth it.
1. Soft (RO) water with calcium at about 25 ppm and chloride at about 50
2. Dough in cold
3. Beta glucan rest at about 108 °F
4. Pull first thick decoction
5. Protein rest at 122-128
6. Pull second thick decoction
7. Saccharification rest at 148 F
8. Pull third thin decoction
9. Mashout at 167 - 170
10. 2 hour boil. 4 additions of Saaz starting at 1 hour
11. Pitch lots of yeast at below 50 if you can get it that cold
12. Ferment at 48
13. When within about 2 °P of terminal start lowering temperature 1 °F/day
14. Continue to as close to freezing as you can.
15. Hold for 3 weeks to a month.
16. Transfer to kegs being sure to take plenty of yeast along.
17. Store cold for up to 18 mos. (drinking as you go, of course)

Note that no diacetyl rest is done. It is not required and gives a much finer head and delicate beer. Diacetyl rests are for modern commercial operations in a hurry to get the beer off the loading dock. You have chosen to use an heirloom cultivar. Doesn't seem to do it justice to brew it other than in the heirloom way. Not to mention that the result is so good.

[grainman]

Properly managed this malt makes an absolutely delicious Pils but it's aging history is interesting. As soon as it is ready to drink it will wow you. Noticeably better than the pneumatically malted stuff from Weyermann's. But then 3 months or so in it starts to fall back a bit and you might conclude the pneumatically malted stuff better. But then after another couple of months it re-emerges to top the modern stuff again.

I've only used it with the Budvar strain (because beers brewed with that strain taste more like Budvar than ones brewed with the Urquell strain taste like Urquell, IMO).

To get the best result is a lot of work but well worth it.
1. Soft (RO) water with calcium at about 25 ppm and chloride at about 50
2. Dough in cold
3. Beta glucan rest at about 108 °F
4. Pull first thick decoction
5. Protein rest at 122-128
6. Pull second thick decoction
7. Saccharification rest at 148 F
8. Pull third thin decoction
9. Mashout at 167 - 170
10. 2 hour boil. 4 additions of Saaz starting at 1 hour
11. Pitch lots of yeast at below 50 if you can get it that cold
12. Ferment at 48
13. When within about 2 °P of terminal start lowering temperature 1 °F/day
14. Continue to as close to freezing as you can.
15. Hold for 3 weeks to a month.
16. Transfer to kegs being sure to take plenty of yeast along.
17. Store cold for up to 18 mos. (drinking as you go, of course)

Note that no diacetyl rest is done. It is not required and gives a much finer head and delicate beer. Diacetyl rests are for modern commercial operations in a hurry to get the beer off the loading dock. You have chosen to use an heirloom cultivar. Doesn't seem to do it justice to brew it other than in the heirloom way. Not to mention that the result is so good.

Hmm.....never done a decoction before, but I do have 2 stage temp control, so that part of it will be no problem for me. My water comes out of the tap extremely soft, so I will actually have to add some calcium chloride for a little calcium to help the yeast out. So I guess I have to ask, if I am not going to do a decoction, did I waste my money getting this particular malt? Could I just as easily used wyermann continental pils malt with the same result? I understand the decoction procedure, but I'm not too confident I can hit all those temp steps during the decoction process. I have a cooler mash tun and I batch sparge, so every infusion has to be carefully calculated for temp in order to hit my target temp.I can do a protein rest if it will make a difference.The only reason I got that particular malt is because of the reputation it has for producing tasty beer and I wanted to get this one right.

[ajdelange]

So I guess I have to ask, if I am not going to do a decoction, did I waste my money getting this particular malt? Could I just as easily used wyermann continental pils malt with the same result?

There are really 2 questions here which would have to be answered by:
A)Brewing with the floor malt and with pneumatic malt without decoction and comparing the beers
B)Brewing with the floor malt with and then again without decoction and comparing the results.

I have done C) which is the same as A except both beers were decocted. There definitely is a difference if you do that.

I understand the decoction procedure, but I'm not too confident I can hit all those temp steps during the decoction process.

I don't think I'd choose a triple decocted brew for my first whack at decoction mashing. The first time you do one you will wish you had two extra hands and two extra eyes.

I have a cooler mash tun and I batch sparge, so every infusion has to be carefully calculated for temp in order to hit my target temp.I can do a protein rest if it will make a difference.The only reason I got that particular malt is because of the reputation it has for producing tasty beer and I wanted to get this one right.

Given the debate as to whether decoction really makes a difference with modern well modified malts the question turns on the degree of modification of this malt. Just because it is floor malted doesn't mean it is more or less malted than barley malted in the more modern way.

My gut says that if you do all the temperature steps you will get most of the benefits of this malt but that's my gut. Plenty of room for experimentation/learning for you here!

[grainman]

So I guess I have to ask, if I am not going to do a decoction, did I waste my money getting this particular malt? Could I just as easily used wyermann continental pils malt with the same result?

There are really 2 questions here which would have to be answered by:
A)Brewing with the floor malt and with pneumatic malt without decoction and comparing the beers
B)Brewing with the floor malt with and then again without decoction and comparing the results.

I have done C) which is the same as A except both beers were decocted. There definitely is a difference if you do that.

I understand the decoction procedure, but I'm not too confident I can hit all those temp steps during the decoction process.

I don't think I'd choose a triple decocted brew for my first whack at decoction mashing. The first time you do one you will wish you had two extra hands and two extra eyes.

I have a cooler mash tun and I batch sparge, so every infusion has to be carefully calculated for temp in order to hit my target temp.I can do a protein rest if it will make a difference.The only reason I got that particular malt is because of the reputation it has for producing tasty beer and I wanted to get this one right.

Given the debate as to whether decoction really makes a difference with modern well modified malts the question turns on the degree of modification of this malt. Just because it is floor malted doesn't mean it is more or less malted than barley malted in the more modern way.

My gut says that if you do all the temperature steps you will get most of the benefits of this malt but that's my gut. Plenty of room for experimentation/learning for you here!

I think I'll wait to do my 1st decoction .... Maybe try it with a hefe....on this one I'm just going to try to hit my numbers right all the way through the process. I think if I do that I'll be happy with it come July when I tap the keg. Thanks AJ .... Very hepful advice. As with almost everything in brewing there are multiple ways proceed here.

[dstar26t]

I just picked up a sack of the Floor Malted stuff and got an analysis sheet for it, maybe you have the same batch. This was the newest available sack from my homebrew shop that they ordered a few days prior from their supplier. I was kinda pissed to see that it was produced on 4/15/11! Maybe Weyermann doesn't produce it as often? Anyway, the Kolbach Index is 41.8% and the total protein is 10.6%. According to these numbers, you shouldn't NEED to do a protein rest for clarity.



Nate

[grainman]

I just picked up a sack of the Floor Malted stuff and got an analysis sheet for it, maybe you have the same batch. This was the newest available sack from my homebrew shop that they ordered a few days prior from their supplier. I was kinda pissed to see that it was produced on 4/15/11! Maybe Weyermann doesn't produce it as often? Anyway, the Kolbach Index is 41.8% and the total protein is 10.6%. According to these numbers, you shouldn't NEED to do a protein rest for clarity.



Nate

Wow, great info, thanks. I got mine from Northern brewer, but I have no idea of the freshness.

[grainman]

Ok guys, just a follow up.....brew day went fine except for the fact that I installed a new mash tun manifold (cpvc) with sawed slits.....well I had stuck sparge galore, then when I finally freed it up and vorlaufed, the wort was clear , but all of a sudden it came surging out of the tun with cloudiness and specs of grain...the only thing I could do was dump it all back in my mash tun and sparge it again, which worked ok...I did not do a protein rest or decoction....just a standard batch sparge procedure....hit all my temps ok though and pitched at 44f. Allowed it to free rise to 50f.after about 16 days it tasted a little rough , but no weird flavors. Transfered to keg and slowly dropped temp to 40f for 2 weeks. Last night I pulled a pint and it was almost clear, but the taste was fantastic! Very clean, but it had a beautiful malt character...after a second pint , I put the co2 on it for carbing.I did not do a diacetyl rest, but could not detect any at all. This is my first Lager / first pils and it is shaping up to be the best beer I ever brewed. Thanks for all the advice guys, even though I didn't follow all of it but it certainly helped...I was just concentrating on getting the basics right and it worked out great. BTW the floor malted bo pils malt is worth the extra money....fantastic malt character.