Re: Advanced Brewing Water Software

Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:40 am

Is the R.O. water profile for dilution a generic entry, or should I try and obtain results from the water company?
Also for the Mineral additions, would be nice to have a calc. on the adjustments sheet from ppm to gram/gal. Also, out of curiosity, for the beer style water profiles, how did you determine the profiles?
mcs84
 
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Re: Advanced Brewing Water Software

Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:20 am

Can you explain what the equivalent biocarbonate concentration is?

This is the value that varies drastically from Beersmith, so just wondering how this value is calculated? I tried to find the answer in the excel file but if it is there I missed it somewhere...So if you could give an explanation I would appreciate it.

Thank you for the excellent software
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Stinkfist
 
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Re: Advanced Brewing Water Software

Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:44 am

Stinkfist wrote:Can you explain what the equivalent biocarbonate concentration is?

This is the value that varies drastically from Beersmith, so just wondering how this value is calculated? I tried to find the answer in the excel file but if it is there I missed it somewhere...So if you could give an explanation I would appreciate it.


Thanks for the comments.

As you have probably noted in the chemical formulas for chalk (CaCO3) and pickling lime (Ca(OH)2, there isn't any bicarbonate shown in them. But, when these minerals are mixed in water that has a pH between roughly 6.5 and 10.5, most of their alkalinity producing ion will exist in the form of the bicarbonate ion (HCO3).

But the real reason that those minerals are expressed with equivalent bicarbonate concentrations is that Alkalinity in Bru'n Water is calculated via the water's bicarbonate concentration. So its necessary to present it as such or I would have had to add extra columns for extra anions that nobody cares about anyhow. Expressing in these equivalent terms should be more meaningful to a brewer anyhow since they need a measure relating the brewing water's anti-acid capacity. This concept was also applied to the acid addition on the Water Adjustment sheet. In that case, the acid addition produces a negative bicarbonate number. This is in fact how acid and base neutralization is calculated. If you add acid, you are taking out alkalinity (reducing the bicarbonate concentration).

In the case of Beersmith, they are probably presenting the amount of carbonate provided by the chalk addition. That should be 158.5 ppm when 1 gram/gallon is added to water. Although that's accurate, it does not represent the amount of alkalinity that is produced in the water if all the chalk actually dissolved. When fully dissolved, all that CO3 will mostly exist as HCO3 if the water pH falls between 6.5 and 10.5. The true quantity of bicarbonate produced in the water with 1g/gal chalk is 322.3 ppm.

The problem with chalk is that it is not very soluble in water and it requires an external acid to help it dissolve. In nature, CO2 dissolves in water to form carbonic acid that solublizes the chalk. That dissolution takes a long time to complete. Even in the presence of the weak acids produced in the mash, chalk does not dissolve well. Work by AJ Delange and Kai Troester have proven that only about half the chalk will dissolve in the mash in practice. So in practice, it just happens that the 158 ppm number used in some water calculations might be somewhat correct. That was just dumb luck, buts its OK. Bru'n Water tells you the true value of bicarbonate as if you actually performed the extra steps needed to dissolve the chalk fully. It can be done, take your chalk amount and put it in a plastic soda bottle with a carbonator cap and charge it with CO2. After a little shaking and some time, it too will dissolve fully. That is kind of a PITA, so Bru'n Water recommends that you use the Water adjustment sheet to calculate the chalk addition needed, and then add twice as much chalk as calculated to hopefully produce the needed alkalinity. I think that's kind of iffy, so I recommend that brewers use Pickling Lime instead. It does dissolve fully and it works every time.

So, Beersmith is sort of correct in a practical way, but Bru'n Water is more accurate, if you dissolve your chalk fully.
Martin B
Carmel, IN
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Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

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mabrungard
 
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Re: Advanced Brewing Water Software

Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:20 am

Wow thanks for the detailed response. I think that makes sense. So basically what you are saying is if I do not properly dissolve chalk, then I basically need to double the amount.

I had not heard of using pickling lime, is that easily purchased at a grocery store? Does this add any noticeable flavor to the beer?
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Stinkfist
 
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Re: Advanced Brewing Water Software

Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:04 pm

Pickling Lime (aka Slaked Lime) can sometimes be found at the grocery store. It is a home canning supply that some places stock. Even some Walmarts stock it seasonally. Its just calcium hardness and alkalinity, so there is little taste impact outside the pH effect. Only add the prescribed amount of lime to the mash, not to water alone since it does increase the water pH substantially and might precipitate chalk if you don't add it to the mash directly.
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Download Bru'n Water here:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-Water/464551136933908?ref=bookmarks
mabrungard
 
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Re: Advanced Brewing Water Software

Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:50 pm

Version 1.10 has been uploaded. The only real changes are improvements to the Instructions, Water Knowledge, and pop-up notes in the program.

But for Metric brewers, there is now a SI version available.

Enjoy!
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Download Bru'n Water here:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-Water/464551136933908?ref=bookmarks
mabrungard
 
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