How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Let me think - last really efficient "dunk sparge" brew I did was an IPA brewed with Spillsmostofit and we got 80+% with a 25litre batch and 6.9kg of grain. I believe we mashed in with all but about 6-8litres of our water which would have given us an L:G ratio of about 4:1... so you'll probably be OK.

Yes, there must be something in the water here in Collingwood, as we routinely get the sorts of efficiencies Thirsty Boy speaks of. I usually get slightly better extraction with my tiny boiler (20litre) than my biggun (75litre) and I attribute that to the smaller relative sparge volume when using the biggun. The difference is only of academic interest though.

Yesterday, I mashed 1.75kg grain in 8litres water and DunkSparged with 5litres for a final kettle volume of 8.5litres. I calculate 83% efficiency, which is about right, if a tad low, for the tiny boiler.

My all-time highest efficiency was in the tiny boiler with 89%, but it took a lot of effort to get that extra few tablespoons of sugar. I reckon that when I get 75% or better and the result is beer I am happy with, the world is good.

[sbillings]

Hmm. That is probably the problem. I don't actually use a bag as such, it's 1m of muslin, strapped to the neck of the bucket, with bungee cord. Makes sense that my efficiency drops with large amounts of grain.

Might see if I can get my better half to run some muslin through the sewing machine for me. Two sheets together should make a decent sized lining. Means I'll have to put off the project until after the home improvements, though. The house is like a bomb hit it at the moment and I know that a request of this type right now would result in a very short answer.

I should mention that I sometimes boil more than my boiler can hold, by putting up to 10L of wort into a stock pot and boiling it on the hob, then adding it to the main boiler, once the volumes have been reduced by evaporation. Can't wait to get a bigger boiler, so I don't have to do this crap any more.

[Ragde!]

Ok ya’ll, I’m about ready to give this a go. I had a thought as I read through what everyone had to say…

It seems like some people are having issues with wort retention in the bags when “sparging” so what if you were to put something in the bottom of the bag that is flat and just smaller than your kettle dia.? Im thinking of my false bottom or something like it before you add the grain.

Im assuming that the “false bottom” in the bottom of the bag would keep the bag from assuming the tear drop shape when removing the bag from the kettle, especially if you use the sleeping bag cover design, therefore providing for a “thinner” grain bed and allowing more “wort” to escape. The false bottom would also let the wort escape the entire bottom of the bag.

My only concern with this is that any sharp or thin edges of the false bottom may tear/cut the bag under the weight of the grain. (and that were adding more equipment which is counter to the BIAB idea.)

Thx to the pioneers who are willing to think outside the box for other home brewers.

[PistolPatch]

Howdy Radge and sbillings,

Just reading your posts and am thinking that any problems people are having with draining the wort is probably due to the material being used. I have some material left over here so if someone wants me to mail it to them and then source the material in the US then let me know.

Radge: Clever thinking in your post above but I reckon that with the right material, you won't need to use the false bottom.

sbillings: If my memory serves me correctly, muslin is a problem with BIAB. I think it also imparts an off-flavour though I might be wrong on this. As you're in Ireland, let me know if you want me to mail you some material as well.

My New Bag

Brewed two double-batches with a new bag last Sunday and it worked a treat though I can't remember much of the end of the brew day

My kettle is 45cm in diameter and 45cm high so I made the bag with a 35cm diameter bottom, a 55cm diameter top and 55cm high.

Instead of a draw-string, I used elastic and this works very well to hold the bag around the kettle lip. For lifting I had 6 tabs sewn in. I had the drycleaners sew it all up and they did a superb job. The bag also took less than a minute to clean. Cool!

Here's a pic showing elastic and tabs...



Here's one showing a crazy lifting set-up using some clever devices I bought years ago. Ended up with a much simpler idea in the end (see below).



Another use for your skyhook is to suspend a hopsock as per the pic below.



Lifting Ideas

The end result of my lifting experiments (no pics sorry) was just to use two cheap SS carabenas (smaller than the one you can see in the hopsock shot above) in the manner that the diagram shows below.



Next brew, I’m going to add another skyhook and carabena so as I can not only lift the bag vertically but horizontally as well. Hopefully this next diagram shows what I mean.



Cheers,
Pat

[Ragde!]

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=30905

This will lock in place each gear tooth so you can raise very slow if you are concerned about hsa. I have one of these attached to some retractable stairs in my barn and those are HEAVY!!! no doubt your grain bag would break before the winch. Just add a pully and your set.

[DaaB]

One question... how big is your bag?? The recommendation we are making for the BIAB bags is that they should in NO WAY constrict the volume of the grain. The bag should be at least as big as the pot (my pot will just fit inside my bag) so that effectively, you are not actually mashing inside the constraints of the bag, you are mashing inside the pot like a normal brewer, your pot just "happens" to be lined by a bag. Anecdotally at least.. it made a huge difference to people's efficiency if they reduced the size of the bag much.

(FWIW) Lautering through a grain bag is a much underrated technique. When I started brewing, despite already having bought a grain bag, I was put off using it after reading some of the literature that was available at the time (basically it said they are difficult and messy to use).

For several years I persevered using a cool box and manifold with it's inherent stuck mashes and slow run off when finally while making my first wheat beer I had a stuck mash that just wouldn't shift. After getting the idea from this bloke (CLICKY-LINK) , in desperation I set my grain bag up in a plastic bucket fermenter with tap and dumped the goods into it. Leaving the bag in place and opening the tap, I ran the the wort off without any problems at all and the efficiency was great, 80% plus iirc so the next few brews I continued to mash with a grain bag in a bucket fermenter insulated by a sleeping bag and a cardboard box.

I'd still be using one now but I wanted to find a better method of insulating the mash tun and added a heater (kettle element) throttled back using a solid state power controller. I didn't like the idea of using a nylon grain bag with a kettle element so I made a simple false bottom for my mash tun instead

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/ ... falseb.jpg

I prefer it to the grain bag as it is easier to clean but there is no real advantage other than that. They both get similar efficiencies in the 80's and you can batch sparge around 5.5 kg of grain using both methods, and still get a good efficiency.

You can get them cheaply in homebrew shops in the UK (and Europe i'm told), I can recommend trying one out, especially if you are using a manifold at the moment, just about every home brewer in the UK back in the 70's and 80's started out by using one until the manifold systems became popular. I can understand why people switched over as the bags can collect the odd stray grain or two and start to take on an interesting colour

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a286/ ... ainbag.jpg

(I forgot how my grain bag looked until I set it up out to take a photo it's now soaking in unscented oxyclean which usually brings it up as good as new).

Hope that helps. If anyone is thinking of trying it, give it a shot

Edit: I wouldn't bother lifting the bag out of the tun, it squashes the grains and you loose the filter action of the grain bed and it can squeeze out small particles of husk which you don't really want in the boil.

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks Daab,

Its good to hear more confirmation of what I had always suspected, the bag idea has/is used by a lot more people than you might expect.

Your edit though where you suggest not lifting the bag, suggests to me though, that you didn't read through the entire thread before you posted....

The effects of lifting the bag that you describe... turn out to not be an issue at all if you are running with "by the book" BIAB or a variation thats pretty close.

The BIAB thing isn't about just mashing in a bag and batch (or any) sparging, although thats obviously a really effective way to brew. BIAB is about mashing - not sparging - & boiling - all in the same vessel. The object being to cut the equipment, cost, time and space required to brew All Grain; down to the absolute minimum. Basically to make AG as attractive as possible to the new brewer.

Of course, if those things aren't an issue, then the possible combinations and variations between the bag and other more "standard" homebrewing techniques are really limitless. As your grain bag technique most ably demonstrates.

Cheers and thanks again for your post.

Thirsty

[DaaB]

Your edit though where you suggest not lifting the bag, suggests to me though, that you didn't read through the entire thread before you posted....

well there are 8 pages and my speed reading isn't that great

The BIAB thing isn't about just mashing in a bag and batch (or any) sparging, although thats obviously a really effective way to brew. BIAB is about mashing - not sparging - & boiling - all in the same vessel. The object being to cut the equipment, cost, time and space required to brew All Grain; down to the absolute minimum. Basically to make AG as attractive as possible to the new brewer.

I realise that but the bags I mention are for 25L boilers/fermenters which is why I refer to batch sparging.

I like the sentiments behind trying to simplify the process, but with reference to cost and simplicity, in the UK at least, legal kegs are costly and aren't the easiest thing for some people to convert, burners aren't cheap either. Then there's the lifting gear, if you have a block and tackle and a load bearing beam handy that's fine, but it's a little trickier if you don't, or want to brew outside.

Personally I have recommended to people who don't like DIY to mash in an unconverted cool box then dump the grains into a grain bag supported in a fermenter with tap and batch sparge, running off into a second fermenter.

Once the wort has been collected then it can be boiled in a large stock pot on the stove. I know a guy who is doing just that in Spain and apparently making great beer.