Lacto Consuming Sugars But Little Tartness Present

[JimL]

I brewed 10g of a Berliner Weisse in Feb. with a normal 60m mash, boiled for 15 min and chilled wort to 90F before pitching a lacto starter evenly between carboys. The starter was built up from Wyeast lacto culture two times at room temp on stir plate over the course of two weeks (1L first then added to 3L- both 1.035 wort). The starter wasn't really tart which surprised me since it consumed all of the sugars.

After 3 days at 86F the lacto brought the gravity from 1.035 down to 1.015, I then pitched german ale yeast to finish things up. I got down to 1.004 when I kegged one of the carboys and added a pint of riesling concentrate to the other. Both are now done, kegged and sitting at roughly 65F in my basement with very little tartness. This is the 2nd time I've brewed a BW and have read these things take upwards of 6 months to reach peak sourness. My first batch never really hit the sourness desired so I was hoping pitching a shitload of lacto would help with it.

What I'm having difficulty understanding is how the lacto could consume so much sugar and not produce the tartness I expected. Is the missing ingredient a higher ferment temp? Wondering if it would benefit me now to crank the heat up to 90F or so in my chest freezer/incubator for a few days or if I just need to wait it out and let things happen slowly. I'll be grabbing some pH strips tomorrow to check the levels and report back.

[Quin]

My guess was you may have picked up some wild yeast along the way?

My experience was almost exactly the opposite. The lacto (from 2# grain into 12 gal batch) hardly dropped the gravity at all, but brought the pH down to 3.6. It took four days for the pH to get to 3.6. I then boiled again to kill everything, added 5IBU's of hops, and pitched a clean ale yeast to finish it off. It is very tart.

[JimL]

My guess was you may have picked up some wild yeast along the way?

It's doubtful. My process is super clean and this is the second time I've brewed with the Wyeast lacto culture with similar outcome. The beer tastes really clean with just a little tartness- it's not funky by any means which you would expect from a wild yeast.

[jm]

My guess was you may have picked up some wild yeast along the way?

It's doubtful. My process is super clean and this is the second time I've brewed with the Wyeast lacto culture with similar outcome. The beer tastes really clean with just a little tartness- it's not funky by any means which you would expect from a wild yeast.

I've had the Wyeast lacto do the same; tear through all the sugar and end up with a crisp, clean, very light acidity. My solution has been to get as much bio-diversity as possible; pedio., lacto. from WL & WY, commercial dregs, dregs from my previous sours etc. and so far the results have been much more satisfactory than using any one commercial strain.

I've got no clue as to why that happens.

[JimL]

Thanks. Would a bottle of 1809 be a good source for the lacto culture? We've got some bottles on the shelf around here but they are probably old a shit. I'm trying to locate another bottle of The Bruery's Hottenroth but they don't distribute in Missouri.

We have a new brewery that opened recently which uses homegrown lactic acid to adjust pH, maybe I could get some bugs from them. Do you think it's too late to innoculate this batch since I'm already down to 1.003-1.004?

[brewinhard]

Building up lacto on a stir plate is the not best approach as lactobacillus ferments best anaerobically. A stirplate introduces way too much oxygen for proper growth. You might not have as much lacto as you thought.

My last BW I made I pitched a 2 qt starter stepped up twice with a WY lacto pack. I let the no boil ferment at 95 deg with minimal IBU contribution from a decoction mash hopping. After 48 hrs I let the beer cool to high ale temps and pitched my saccharomyces to finish things up. At kegging time (7 days later) the beer was just mildly tart and not sour. 9 mos later after aging the keg at basement temps I am now drinking a sharply sour and acidic berliner that is crystal clear. I did add the dregs of a bottle of Fantome Hiver for some complexity which I enjoy. Definitely give it some time to develop. At least 6 mos to reach a good sourness.

If you wanted to add the dregs of a sour beer than by all means go for it. Even with a few gravity points left you will notice the contribution in such a light bodied beer. After adding the dregs you will need to give it a few more mos for the brett to clean up any diacetyl produced by the pediococcus (if you pitch dregs from a lambic/gueuze).

[pythoner]

I just found a berliner weise that I brewed 100 months ago but bottled it after one month, I put if in the fridge and will let you know tomorrow if my wyeast lacto did any good

[JimL]

I just found a berliner weise that I brewed 100 months ago

Amazing.

I'm beginning to second guess the IBU contribution of my hops in these batches. Per my software I'm contributing 5 IBU with a kettle hop addition and 15 min boil. I know lacto is very hop-sensitive, but is 5 IBU too much for it to really work? Next time I'll try the mash hop and no boil method.