Flanders Red Fruit question

[maxwell]

I brewed a Flanders red based on JZ's technique in 04/2010. Primary fermentation was with WLP001 and then I pitched Wyeast Roselare in secondary (plastic bucket with airlock). Beer was at 1.026 when I racked it. After 8 months, the beer has not gotten as sour as I'd like and I'm thinking about adding some fruit. It is really tasty and the Roselare has contributed notes of cherry. My options are:

1. Wait until cherry season (May-June) and get fresh cherries
2. Add canned or frozen cherries now or soon
3. Relax and wait another few months

Any advice?

Thanks
max

[PhillyBrewer]

I'm not sure how to answer your question, but I think you need to give Roeselare AT LEAST a year to sour sufficiently. I'm interested to hear responses to your question, though. My Flanders Red is probably only a couple months younger than yours and I was considering doing something similar when I bottle.

[JohnF]

I'd give it more time but, just to be clear, you have 8 months in a bucket right?

I'd like to have another data point against what I believe to be the unfounded theory that beers aged in buckets will get too acetic.

[maxwell]

Yes, it has been in the bucket for 8 months. There is some acetic character in this beer. My first Flanders (first sour in general) so I have no idea whether glass would produce something really different. Jamil and Raj Apte have presumably done this many many times and if they say that the bucket lets in too much oxygen, I'm inclined to believe them. Philly brewer - I would be careful adding fruit at bottling time. I think that the fruit has to sit in the fermenting beer for quite a while so that the bugs have time to eat through all of the sugar. If you add enough fruit to add more than, say, 0.004 s.g. points and bottle right away, you'll have bottle bombs.

Max

[PhillyBrewer]

Indeed. What is done with Duchesse (s/p) and Monk's Flemish Sour to get those Flemish Reds to be what they end up being? Is unfermentable sugar and/or fruit added?

[brewinhard]

They backsweeten them with unfermentable sweetener (saccharin, i believe) to get their flavors. At least I know the Duchesse does.

A quick tip to make that Roselare work better for you....

- brew several batches in a row with this blend and they will get progressively more sour
- try adding some dregs of a good lambic or gueuze to add complexity and sourness (you will notice the difference within a few mos)

[maxwell]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. Am I right in thinking that by re-using the roeselare repeatedly you're favoring acetobacter over lacto and brett by skewing the initial makeup of the bug community? This is what I would expect based on Vinnie's NHC talk from a few years ago.

Max

[JohnF]

Yes, it has been in the bucket for 8 months. There is some acetic character in this beer. My first Flanders (first sour in general) so I have no idea whether glass would produce something really different. Jamil and Raj Apte have presumably done this many many times and if they say that the bucket lets in too much oxygen, I'm inclined to believe them.

Raj Apte on his site IIRC does not discuss trials with buckets, he does calculate the oxygen permeability of a bucket. One issue with his calculations as pointed out by Old Sock here:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/20 ... elare.html

Is that if the figures Sparrow reports in Wild Brews for acetic acid content in Rodenbach Grand Cru and time spent on the foudres is correct, Apte's calculation for oxygen permeability of the foudres must be incorrect (and backing into the oxygen permeability of the foudres from Sparrow's number gives you a number very close to Apte's calculation for the bucket, which may explain why there has been at least one NHC gold medal winning Flander's Red made in a bucket, see below).

Jamil, if you look at his old posts on the B3 forum, advocated for making Flanders Red in a bucket. Not sure when or why he changed his advice but his Flanders Red that won NHC was made in a bucket assuming the B3 posts were honest/correct.

We all "know" that aging Flander's Red in buckets will make it too acetic but I have yet to run into anyone that managed to make a beer more acetic than Rodenbach Grand Cru or La Folie in a bucket.

I'm wondering if oak pegs in carboys is a solution in search of a problem. I made my first one a couple of months back. I'm going to try some different methods and I'll report my results but I've just been noticing that the "my Flanders Red was too acetic" anecdotes don't seem to exist.