Beer Forum

Howdy,

Thinking of an Orval style beer. I have a smak-pack of the Wyeast 3789-PC Trappist Blend that I have heard is close to Orval as a yeast for specialy ales. Here is the description:

Wyeast 3789-PC Trappist Blend
Beer Styles: Belgian Specialty Ale, Belgian Pale Ale, Flanders Red, Oud Bruin
Profile: A unique blend of Belgian Saccharomyces and Brettanomyces for emulating Trappist style beer from the Florenville region in Belgium. Phenolics, mild fruitiness and complex spicy notes develop with increased fermentation temperatures. Subdued but classic Brett character.

Alc. Tolerance 12% ABV
Flocculation medium
Attenuation 75-80%
Temperature Range 68-85°F (18-30°C)

Some questions:
- Anybody use this yeast before and have tips?
- Is a different starter method required because it has bugs? - pitch rates, size to OG, starter ferment temp, etc.
- What would be the batch aeration regime for this since it has bugs?
- what's the fermentation profile? - extended time in primay/senconday, fermentation temps.
- Do I need to segregate cold side equipment from non-bug brews? - buckets,hose, etc.

Any tips will be helpful

- Cheers

This is a new one, so I don't think anybody has used it yet. Since it's made to emulate Orval, I'd pitch/aerate/propgate as normal. I think in BLAM they say Orval primaries in the low 70's and secondary in the low 60's. You might want to double check those numbers though.

And let us know how it goes!

If I remember correctly from Wild Brews book, Orval primaries around 64-66 degrees. They then secondary with pitched Brett at 59 degrees for three weeks dry-hopping in the last week. Mind you they are not pitching an original yeast/bug blend but just a sacc. yeast then brett in secondary. I have brewed a few orval clones and would recommend keeping the original fermentation temps in primary somewhat cool 65-68 degrees, maybe to 70 at end. The beer should be a clean slate for the brett to do its work on. But that Trappist blend is different. Just try to keep fusels in check by keeping temps under control. Good luck. I am sure someone else will hopefully chime in and give some tips too!

brewinhard wrote:If I remember correctly from Wild Brews book, Orval primaries around 64-66 degrees. They then secondary with pitched Brett at 59 degrees for three weeks dry-hopping in the last week. Mind you they are not pitching an original yeast/bug blend but just a sacc. yeast then brett in secondary. I have brewed a few orval clones and would recommend keeping the original fermentation temps in primary somewhat cool 65-68 degrees, maybe to 70 at end. The beer should be a clean slate for the brett to do its work on. But that Trappist blend is different. Just try to keep fusels in check by keeping temps under control. Good luck. I am sure someone else will hopefully chime in and give some tips too!

I echo these sentiments. If I remember correctly, the "Belgian Ardennes" yeast is the Orval primary yeast, and they pitch Brett Brux at bottling after centrifuging out the primary yeast. It will be interesting to see how it turns out pitching them both at once. Are you planning on waiting for a pellicle, etc. and all that entails, or just bottling it between the end of primary and when the pellicle forms? Depending which you do, I imagine the end product will be vastly different. If you are trying to stay as true to Orval as possible in spite of pitching simultaneously, I would guess the second option would get you closer. Let us know how it goes!

Bellmer wrote:

brewinhard wrote:If I remember correctly from Wild Brews book, Orval primaries around 64-66 degrees. They then secondary with pitched Brett at 59 degrees for three weeks dry-hopping in the last week. Mind you they are not pitching an original yeast/bug blend but just a sacc. yeast then brett in secondary. I have brewed a few orval clones and would recommend keeping the original fermentation temps in primary somewhat cool 65-68 degrees, maybe to 70 at end. The beer should be a clean slate for the brett to do its work on. But that Trappist blend is different. Just try to keep fusels in check by keeping temps under control. Good luck. I am sure someone else will hopefully chime in and give some tips too!

I echo these sentiments. If I remember correctly, the "Belgian Ardennes" yeast is the Orval primary yeast, and they pitch Brett Brux at bottling after centrifuging out the primary yeast. It will be interesting to see how it turns out pitching them both at once. Are you planning on waiting for a pellicle, etc. and all that entails, or just bottling it between the end of primary and when the pellicle forms? Depending which you do, I imagine the end product will be vastly different. If you are trying to stay as true to Orval as possible in spite of pitching simultaneously, I would guess the second option would get you closer. Let us know how it goes!

...pellicle... D'OH . Do all brett types create pellicle? (this is how much I don't know)

I usually just see a little flaky funk on the top of mine. Not a real pellicle. "Results may vary".

I think your best bet would be to ferment with a healthy starter in primary. The saccharomyces yeast will reproduce faster than the brett and tackle most of the sugars. After primary is done, I would then rack to secondary with a little headspace (not too much) and at least let it age for 1-2 months and see if a pellicle does form (around fermentation temps). If it doesn't form during this time, bottle or keg. If it does, let the brett do its thing and eat up some remaining dextrins funkifying your schwill. When that fermentation subsides, bottle and enjoy.

I currently have a nice orval clone going (ala JZ) which I fermented in primary with Belgain Ardennes, then racked to secondary with Brett B. It took a good 3-4 wks. to form a nice (but thin) pellicle on top. It has been sitting for an additional 5 wks. slooooowly fermenting away. I plan on letting the Brett finish the majority of the way (which it appears to be slowing, b/c the pellicle is thinning and I see less CO2 bubbles rising) and then dryhop with 2 oz. of Styrian.