Acetic acid in Flanders

[Spidey]

If you DID use the Roeselare for your primary fermentation, would you still rack to a secondary? Would you rack at the same point in fermentation as you would if you used a different yeast for primary fermentation. Wouldn't you be loosing a lot of your bacterial culture?

According to Wild Brews, you don't need to rack to secondary because the Brett will actually use the Sacchromyces yeast cake as a source of nutrients. In other words, Sacch. yeast autolysis isn't a problem the way you might expect from a non-Brett fermentation. I've done a couple Flanders reds using WLP001 for the primary, then Roeselare in secondary. They've been great, and I should thank Jamil for the initial inspiration to try brewing this style. This year I'd like to try to step the "wild character" up a notch, and I plan on pitching the Roeselare direct and letting it sit for a year.

What about using the carboy/airlock but just letting it dry up? That way initial fermentation goes on without other crap in there and when it slows down you have oxygen coming in and with the three piece airlock you have a minimal amount of airborne contaminants.

I use a glass carboy with an airlock for my "wild" fermentations, and over the course of a year I have forgotten to keep the airlock topped off with water. I have no idea how long it was empty for. I haven't gotten mold growth or anything. However, even after a year, the acidic character was still pretty mellow. One thing that was apparent though was that pellicle formation was enhanced in the carboy that the airlock dried out. The other carboy which had liquid in the airlock still had a pellicle, but much thinner. Pellicles are formed by the Brett as a protective barrier so that Acetobacter and other competitors don't steal it's food. Carbon dioxide is also heavier than ambient air. Putting all this info together, I'm not really convinced that enough air exchange will happen to get O2 to the beer when the airlock dries out. If you're moving the carboy around a lot, or removing the airlock to dump dregs, then that's a different story. There you're creating a vacuum and air pressure changes that are likely to cause quite a bit of ambient air to enter the carboy. By dipping the wooden dowel into the ale, you provide a direct line (albeit through the porous wood, which acts as a bit of a filter if you will) between the ale and the outside air. This is a method that I'm considering trying for my next batch. So far, I'm leaning towards the idea of combining a wood dowel and airlock in a stopper. Like it was said before, it's kind of the best of both worlds.
Just my 2 cents.

[Bellmer]

According to Wild Brews, you don't need to rack to secondary because the Brett will actually use the Sacchromyces yeast cake as a source of nutrients. In other words, Sacch. yeast autolysis isn't a problem the way you might expect from a non-Brett fermentation. I've done a couple Flanders reds using WLP001 for the primary, then Roeselare in secondary. They've been great, and I should thank Jamil for the initial inspiration to try brewing this style. This year I'd like to try to step the "wild character" up a notch, and I plan on pitching the Roeselare direct and letting it sit for a year.

According to Wild Brews, this is a normal and possibly necessary thing for Lambics, but not for Flander's Reds and Oud Bruin. Flander's and Oud Bruins are traditionally transferred off of the yeast after primary finishes, whereas Lambic is not. I don't think that it is a problem to do it (I hope not since a year ago I didn't know enough about them and did the same thing), but it possibly (probably) will end up out of style. I'm happy to hear that yours turned out well, it gives me hope for mine. Just wanted to give my 2 cent clarification, though.

[Spidey]

According to Wild Brews, this is a normal and possibly necessary thing for Lambics, but not for Flander's Reds and Oud Bruin. Flander's and Oud Bruins are traditionally transferred off of the yeast after primary finishes, whereas Lambic is not.

Ahhh.... my bad. I think you're right; I was recalling based on what I could remember having read recently. Thanks for the correction. Well, for what it's worth, I've pitched WLP655 sour mix which contains both Sacch and Brett along with Lacto and Pedio (i.e. a mix similar to the Roeselare blend) direct into primary , and I sure couldn't taste any off-flavors. My guess is that you wouldn't have to worry about losing bugs per se, but you might decrease the nutrient supply by racking it off the cake. I don't know how much of a difference this really makes in the end anyway given all the other variables. To rack or not to rack? To each their own. I'd rather save some cleanser, water, and time and not bother. Spend the time drinking a brew instead.

[HopRunner]

I would love to see a picture of a finished Flanders (or Lambic) still in the carboy. Is there a lot of "trub" or sludge in the bottom? Even if the brett and bacteria consume the dead yeast there must still be some kind of byproduct left over. I can only imagine that you must be very careful when it is kegging or bottling time.

BTW - I love this thread!

[brewinhard]

+1 with Bellmer's reply!

Flanders Red and Oud Bruins (browns) should not remain the whole year on the initial yeast cake regardless of whether or not one uses Roselare in primary or secondary. If Roselare is used as the primary yeast, after 7 days it should be racked into secondary with oak and be patient. After conferring with Jamil, it appears that a flanders brown benefits from less sour and more malt, so an initial pitch of neutral yeast (sacch.) and then rack to secondary to add Roselare to funk it up (minimally). either way, it guess it depends what your taste preferences are and what you feel like doing.
Lambics are typically left on the primary yeast for extended aging (@ 2yrs) and the Brett will clean up any autolyzed flavors in the beer very slowly over time. I will be making my first lambic in a few weeks and still have a tough time with leaving the beer on the primary cake for sooooo long. I will probably follow JZ's and Piatz's methods with primary of Cal Ale (neutral), then rack to secondary with lambic culture. Just to make sure it works out!

[brewinhard]

A great forum for all Belgian topics (esp. sour/funk and use of wild critters) is the Burgundian Babble Belt. I too love this talk of eclectic beer and feel like Star Trek "boldly going where no one has gone before", except I know I am just behind the times with these tasty offerings. Oh well, no time like the present to get the ball rolling. Flanders Red will be racked tomorrow and smells great! Can't wait for my initial taste....

[Spidey]

After conferring with Jamil, it appears that a flanders brown benefits from less sour and more malt, so an initial pitch of neutral yeast (sacch.) and then rack to secondary to add Roselare to funk it up (minimally). either way, it guess it depends what your taste preferences are and what you feel like doing.

Absolutely. I totally agree with Jamil and others on this. Flanders red push more toward the acidic/less-sweet side of the spectrum, and lambics even more so. I wouldn't pitch Roselare direct into a traditional within-BJCP-standards oud bruin. You're right, it would be funked too much. But Flemish reds kind of fall in a middle gray area, where some people prefer a lot of funk, others not so much. It just depends on what the brewer's going for, and their style of brewing.

[brewinhard]

Racked my flanders red this afternoon to the tone of a 1022 gravity. Pretty tall initial krausen on the beer still after only 7 days (with just Roselare smackpack in primary). Smelled great, tasted yeasty and sweet (obviously not done attenuating yet). Added 1 oz french med. toast oak cubes into a carboy and plopped in a downstairs closet for aging. Should have more than enough residual sugars for souring nicely. I mashed at 154 for 60 minutes. I am of the understanding that 12-18 mos. should be more than enough time for brett/lacto to break down 12-15 gravity points while funking this batch up! Any thoughts on the high gravity transfer reading?