Re: Target gravity

Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:35 am

This is for readers intersted in coding algorithms or who want to know how to do this accurately. This is what is done in ProMash (and perhaps other programs too).

To solve a problem like this you first need to know the extract potential for each grain. These are specified in the maltsters' data sheets and generally run 79 - 81% but those are typical lab numbers. The numbers you will realize are lower, how much lower depending on which point in the process you choose to define efficiency, your equipment, your procedures etc. If I divide the amount of extract that winds up in the fermenter by the weight of the grain I used I typically get about 65%. If I divide the weight of extract in the kettle by the weight of the grain it is more like 70%. Commercial operations get in the high 70's. Simply multiply each grain's weight by its extract potential to obtain the estimated extract for each grain. Thus 10 lbs of grain will yield 7 pounds of extract if your realized extract potential is 70%. Note that this is distinct from "efficiency" as referred to in the HB literature. Efficiency is usually taken to be the ratio of the realized extract potential to the maximum extract potential. Thus 70% realized extract potential would be called 87.5% (7/8) efficient if the particular malt had a lab rated extract potential of 80%. Home brewing books have tables of "points per pound per gallon" to be expected from a particular style of malt. There are problems with this way of looking at things ("points" are not linear with extract concentration but they are pretty close - close enough for homebrewing certainly) and what the book says may be different from the particular malt you are looking at but again, the differences will be small. Anyway, the first step is to calculate the extract. In the example of interest there were 8 + 1 + 0.5 = 9.5 pounds of grain. Assuming 70% extract potential (reasonable for the kettle) for each, just to make the math easier, these grains would yeild 6.65 pounds of extract.

In the next step we need to find out what concentration of extract in solution causes 4.5 gallons of wort to contain 6.65 pounds of extract. The amount of extract in a volume of wort is

x = P*(V*D*S)/100

here P is the concentration of extract by weight in percent i.e. how many grams of extract per 100 grams of wort. This is called the Plato strength (°P). The weight of the wort is its volume, V, measured at or corrected to room temperature times the density of water, D at room temperature (8.33 lbs/gal) times the specific gravity, S (Apparent, 20/20), of the wort. Solving for P*S

P*S = 100*x/(V*D) = 100*6.65/(8.33*4.5) = 17.74

Now all we need is the value of S which gives a value of 17.74. P is a function of S: P = -616.868 +1111.14*S -630.272*S*S +135.997*S*S*S. This is the ASBC polynomial which is the "official" relationship between Plato and SG in American brewing. Based on this P*S = -616.868*S +1111.14*S*S -630.272*S*S*S +135.997*S*S*S*S. If this is plotted over the range for which the ASBC polynomial applies and a fit done to S it is very nearly linear and an approximate value of S corresponding to a particular P*S can be found from

S = 1.0001 + 0.0038296*(P*S). Thus for P*S = 17.74 the corresponding value of S is 1.0680 SG. This approximation gives an answer accurate to about 1-2 digits in the 4th decimal place. For more exact solution one can use the second order fit (almost 2 orders of magnitude tighter) S = 0.0038626(P*S) - 0.000001526*(P*S)*(P*S) = 1.06804 which gives answers accurate to 2 digits in the 5th decimal place. Those who want an exact answer can use either of these formulae to get a close estimate which can be refined using Newton's method (the slope is m = -616.868 +2*1111.14*S -3*630.272*S*S +4*135.997*S*S*S). As the relationship is so nearly linear a single iteration suffices.

While this may look complicated once you have it set up in an Excel spreadsheet you don't have to worry about it any further. Just put in the extract and the volume and take out the specific gravity (and Plato if you want - stick the specific gravity you determine into the ASBC polynomial.
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Re: Target gravity

Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:15 am

BDawg wrote:
DeepEllumBrews wrote:
Travisty wrote:For 75% efficiency and pppg's of 1.036, 1.034, and 1.028 for the 2-row, C40, and roasted barley, respectively, in 4.5 gallons I get 1.056.

8x36=288
1x34=34
0.5x28=14

288+34+14=336

336/4.5=74.67

74.67x0.75=56



You happen to have a link or can you explain that math for me? Like I said, I'm a software dude. Interested in the calculation though.



First, multiply the weight of each grain by its pppg to get the contribution of each grain:

8x36=288
1x34=34
0.5x28=14

Next, add them up to get the theoretical points in a perfect 100% extraction:
288+34+14=336

Next, divide by the batch size so you know how many points per gallon you'll get:
336/4.5=74.67

finally, multiply by the efficiency so that it adjusts for everyone's less than perfect extraction:
74.67x0.75=56

move the "56" over to 1.056, and you are done.

Hope this makes sense.


Yup, that's what I meant! :jnj

It always helps me to remember the units when I am doing calculations like these. The unit pppg means points per pound per gallon (I still don't know why there are three p's in that unit and not 2 or four but that's how I've learned it). Whenever we use units with a "per" in them, it essentially means we're dividing the first unit by the second. For example mph or miles per hour equals miles/hour. That means that point per pound per gallon equals points/pound/gallon. Now, dividing a number by a fraction is the same as multiplying that number by the inverse of that fraction, so points/pound/gallon also equals (points*gallon)/pound. I don't if that helps you but it helps me a lot to think of it that way. Now I can just start canceling out units. 8 pounds of a malt with a pppg of 36 (points*gallon)/pound yields 288 points*gallon (8*36=288). Divide by your final wort volume in gallons (4.5) and you get 64 points. So 8 pounds of malt with a pppg of 1.036 in 4.5 gallons of wort yields a wort with a gravity of 1.064. Of course that's assuming 100% efficiency which we never get so we need to scale it down to your system's efficiency. If that's 80% then you multiply your 100% gravity points (64) by 0.8 to get 51.2 points. So 8 lbs of malt with pppg of 36 and a brewhouse efficiency of 80% yields a wort with a gravity of 1.0512. Do that calculation with each of the malts in your grain bill and add them up.

Also, all the brewing softwares out there will perform this calculation for you if all I've managed to do is confuse. :)
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Re: Target gravity

Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:06 pm

Just realized that the near linear relationship makes the following formula possible

S = 1 + 0.045971*sum(pot*wt)/Vol

sum(pot*wt) simply means the sum of the weight of the grains times their expected potential extracts. Thus if we assume 70% for each of 8, 1 and 0.5 pounds of malt: sum = 0.7*8 + 0.7*1 + 0.7*0.5 = 6.65. For 4.5 gal this gives

S = 1 + 0.045971*6.65/4.5 = 1.068

to three decimal places. Can't get much simpler than that!

If you are wondering where to get pot values from the answer is the formula itself and the numbers you have for points:

points = 100*(S-1) = 45.97*pot*wt/vol

no sum here since we are concerned with one malt only. Solve:
pot = (points/45.97)/(wt/vol) = points/45.97
as the weight is one pound and the volume 1 gal.

If a fermentable is listed as producing 45.97 ppppg then its potential is 1.0 (it's sucrose). If it is listed as 37 ppppg then its potential is 80.5% and when using it in a sum you should multiply the weight of the grain by 0.805*your_efficiency. Of course, if you have the maltster's data sheet, use his coarse grind extract potential.
ajdelange
 
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Re: Target gravity

Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:53 pm

ajdelange wrote:This is for readers intersted in coding algorithms or who want to know how to do this accurately. This is what is done in ProMash (and perhaps other programs too).

To solve a problem like this you first need to know the extract potential for each grain. These are specified in the maltsters' data sheets and generally run 79 - 81% but those are typical lab numbers. The numbers you will realize are lower, how much lower depending on which point in the process you choose to define efficiency, your equipment, your procedures etc. If I divide the amount of extract that winds up in the fermenter by the weight of the grain I used I typically get about 65%. If I divide the weight of extract in the kettle by the weight of the grain it is more like 70%. Commercial operations get in the high 70's. Simply multiply each grain's weight by its extract potential to obtain the estimated extract for each grain. Thus 10 lbs of grain will yield 7 pounds of extract if your realized extract potential is 70%. Note that this is distinct from "efficiency" as referred to in the HB literature. Efficiency is usually taken to be the ratio of the realized extract potential to the maximum extract potential. Thus 70% realized extract potential would be called 87.5% (7/8) efficient if the particular malt had a lab rated extract potential of 80%. Home brewing books have tables of "points per pound per gallon" to be expected from a particular style of malt. There are problems with this way of looking at things ("points" are not linear with extract concentration but they are pretty close - close enough for homebrewing certainly) and what the book says may be different from the particular malt you are looking at but again, the differences will be small. Anyway, the first step is to calculate the extract. In the example of interest there were 8 + 1 + 0.5 = 9.5 pounds of grain. Assuming 70% extract potential (reasonable for the kettle) for each, just to make the math easier, these grains would yeild 6.65 pounds of extract.

In the next step we need to find out what concentration of extract in solution causes 4.5 gallons of wort to contain 6.65 pounds of extract. The amount of extract in a volume of wort is

x = P*(V*D*S)/100

here P is the concentration of extract by weight in percent i.e. how many grams of extract per 100 grams of wort. This is called the Plato strength (°P). The weight of the wort is its volume, V, measured at or corrected to room temperature times the density of water, D at room temperature (8.33 lbs/gal) times the specific gravity, S (Apparent, 20/20), of the wort. Solving for P*S

P*S = 100*x/(V*D) = 100*6.65/(8.33*4.5) = 17.74

Now all we need is the value of S which gives a value of 17.74. P is a function of S: P = -616.868 +1111.14*S -630.272*S*S +135.997*S*S*S. This is the ASBC polynomial which is the "official" relationship between Plato and SG in American brewing. Based on this P*S = -616.868*S +1111.14*S*S -630.272*S*S*S +135.997*S*S*S*S. If this is plotted over the range for which the ASBC polynomial applies and a fit done to S it is very nearly linear and an approximate value of S corresponding to a particular P*S can be found from

S = 1.0001 + 0.0038296*(P*S). Thus for P*S = 17.74 the corresponding value of S is 1.0680 SG. This approximation gives an answer accurate to about 1-2 digits in the 4th decimal place. For more exact solution one can use the second order fit (almost 2 orders of magnitude tighter) S = 0.0038626(P*S) - 0.000001526*(P*S)*(P*S) = 1.06804 which gives answers accurate to 2 digits in the 5th decimal place. Those who want an exact answer can use either of these formulae to get a close estimate which can be refined using Newton's method (the slope is m = -616.868 +2*1111.14*S -3*630.272*S*S +4*135.997*S*S*S). As the relationship is so nearly linear a single iteration suffices.

While this may look complicated once you have it set up in an Excel spreadsheet you don't have to worry about it any further. Just put in the extract and the volume and take out the specific gravity (and Plato if you want - stick the specific gravity you determine into the ASBC polynomial.


So exactly how off is using a book's guide as ppg? This way of formulating the extracted sugars from grains is way over my head.
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Dmp
 
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Re: Target gravity

Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:27 pm

Dmp wrote:
So exactly how off is using a book's guide as ppg? This way of formulating the extracted sugars from grains is way over my head.


Check out the Brew Strong episode on Malt Analysis. They cover that very question in great detail. I'd say that unless you're using AJ's method above (too difficult for me, too), or you're getting analysis sheets from the Maltster, most generalizations are going to be good enough for our homebrewing production volume.
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Re: Target gravity

Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:42 pm

Dmp wrote:So exactly how off is using a book's guide as ppg? This way of formulating the extracted sugars from grains is way over my head.


To answer that exactly I'd have to know the exact specs of the malt you are using and your efficiency exactly and as, of course, I only know those approximately I think it's safe to say that the values given in the books are probably good enough for most purposes. It probably wouldn't hurt to check an occasional maltsters sheet against what's in the books from time to time.

If you buy malt by the pound being off a couple of percent doesn't matter a whit. If you buy it by the 100's of rail cars it does. The exact method is for those that want everything exact irrespective of the practical significance of that. I argued hard that ProMash should do its calculations exactly because the name contains "Pro" and there may well be users that want an exact solution and I knew there would be some wiseguy out there who would try to break it and complain if he succeded. ProMash, thus, does the calculations exactly, as I described, unless the user tells it not to in which case it will just do the familiar ppppg thing. Otherwise it does extract, dilution and concentration problems based on mass and converts the answer to specific gravity as the final step.

The exact method may look intimidating but that's because it isn't familiar. It's just conservation of mass using the ASBC polynomial (and hence the work of Plato's group) to give the infomation relating specific gravity to % sugar by weight (pounds of sugar per pound of wort) that is needed to solve such problems.
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